Episode 56: A Time to Thrill – Conversation with Aime Austin – featuring Brenda Janowitz

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the joy of speaking with author Brenda Janowitz. So here we go. Many, many years ago, there was a group blog called the Girlfriends Book Club. And actually we still have a Facebook page, which I guess we can link to in the show notes. It's not really an active page. I think each of us occasionally posts some kind of promotional post or whatever there. Okay. All that said, you have to imagine this was the height of the blog era. You have to remember everybody and their brother had a blog. I think I had my first blog. Oh, my God. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Okay. [00:01:02] Speaker B: I had a blog, like in the mid-90s. It was actually called dog earedpage.com. i don't have that domain anymore and I don't even remember what I wrote. And then I had a blog on WordPress where I wrote essays. And actually I turned that into a bi weekly column for a publication that's now defunct. And at the time I wrote personal essays. And this is something that I've always admired in Brenda Janowitz. So years ago when we did this vlog, I like, loosely followed the careers and publications of various authors on the blog. And Brenda at that time was publishing a ton of essays. I think she did A Modern Love in New York Times and had a bunch of essays in various highly regarded publications. And if there are two things I love, one is the personal essay and the other is women's fiction. And so Brenda is the, like, intersection of those two things I love. I love to read people's personal essays about the ways in which they live their life, things they've overcome, decisions they've made, all that kind of stuff. And the other thing I love is women's fiction because who doesn't love a Woman's Journey? And back then she wrote a book called the Lonely Hearts Club, which was ironically, a women's fiction book about blogging. Now that I say it out loud, I see that it all came together. So back then I'd read that book of hers. I admired all that. It was just not the kind of book I was writing back then. I was writing women's fiction. It was all angsty and whatnot. I had just published a book under my previous pen name called the Good Enough Husband, which is now called Someone Else's Wife. I still love all those books I wrote. I just don't do it anymore. So I had written, like, Someone Else's Wife, the Secrets He Keeps, Taming the Bad Boy, those three. I absolutely adore and then I wrote a trilogy. What was perfect, what was lost, what was true, but it was. [00:03:51] Speaker C: I love these books. [00:03:53] Speaker B: I just don't write them anymore. But they're all about these like complex women. Not necessarily 100% likable, but their journeys through life as they overcome whatever the huge obstacle is and sometimes find love, but mainly find acceptance for themselves. And Brenda really writes these books about people sort of coming to terms, I think, both with their past and their present. At least that's how I see them. As you listen to the podcast, you can see how she thinks of that. Okay, all that I said I'm super excited to talk to her. I haven't spoken to her, I mean, other than over email probably in years. And it was so, so great to get a chance to talk to her. All that said, the His Last mistress is still up for pre order. I'm going to be doing some podcasts and other book related stuff over the next few months and I'll be keeping up social mediagal thriller author. And for those of you who are with my email newsletter. So without further ado, let's talk to Brenda Janowitz. [00:05:25] Speaker C: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the delight of speaking with Brenda Janowitz. Hello. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Hi. I'm so excited to be here. [00:05:37] Speaker C: How are you? [00:05:38] Speaker A: I'm doing great. How are you? [00:05:41] Speaker C: It's. Well, you know what, it's raining in Los Angeles, so that's unique and good. It's good. Hasn't rained apparently in eight or nine months, which I didn't. Ooh, how can I say this? I didn't realize it hadn't rained because it rained so seldom that I hadn't noticed. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Wow. [00:05:57] Speaker C: I know. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Well, here in New York, it's. It's raining and snowing, so we've got, we've got it all today. [00:06:05] Speaker C: I don't. So I don't know if you know, I was born and raised in Brooklyn and I miss New York like 50 of the time and then the other 50% not. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Oh my God. Well, not on a day like today. Trust me, the snow. Unless. Did you like snow or you just like the change of seasons? [00:06:23] Speaker C: I love the change of seasons. Like I fall or autumn is my favorite season. Like, I love walking through like Brooklyn and the Brownstones in the fall is like to me the height of life. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's great. I totally hear you. I love the change of seasons also. It's just this slush I could do without and actually I don't mind slush if I don't have anything to do, but I have a lot to do. I know I'm not a fan tonight. [00:06:50] Speaker C: Somebody's like, I love rain if I don't have to leave the house, Natalie. Exactly. We all like it that way, right? [00:06:55] Speaker A: If you could just sit there with a book. Rain is fun and rain's good. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Okay, so I have. Okay, I have about a thousand questions for you. Well, because I just. So many questions. So one of the things I've always really admired about your career is that you write books, which is great. Well, I love book writing, but also that you wrote personal essays. So how. Which one came first? [00:07:23] Speaker A: Oh, that's a great question. You know, I think I have to, like, go back because we're. We're lawyers. So first I was writing legal briefs and all that kind of stuff. So I made the decision that I didn't want to be a lawyer again, and I was going to try to write. I think I started with short stories because someone told me, you have to write short stories first. But then I took a writing class and I started writing this character who was kind of similar to myself, you know, young. A young lawyer, Patton. And she has all these, like, wacky adventures. And that eventually became my first novel. So novels really came first. But then, I don't know, the personal essays were always sort of like there because I think, you know, I always say that I'm a writer because I can't not write. So writing has always been for me, the way I sort of process the world, the way I figure out what I think, all that kind of stuff. So personal essays, like I'm always telling my sons, who. One of my sons hates writing, hates English. I don't take offense to this at all. Hahaha. But, you know, I'm always telling. [00:08:29] Speaker C: He's like. [00:08:30] Speaker A: He's like, what's. Yeah, he's like, what's the point of an essay? I'm like, because an essay is everything. An essay is an argument. An essay is an email. It's like, even though he wants to go into business, he still has to know how to write an essay, meaning how to present information beginning, middle and end. [00:08:45] Speaker C: Right. [00:08:46] Speaker A: And especially if he wants to convince people to, you know, vote on his business deal or what. I don't know. Business, business, you know, but like, he. You sort of need that skill. So I feel like I've always written personal essays, but at a certain point when things would happen, it wasn't necessarily a book, but it was Definitely an essay. But I will say the. The personal essays are so different, of course, because they're real, you know, fiction. I feel like you can sort of, like, hide behind. I made it up. Even though my first novel was definitely based on me, it was definitely me 100% as a lawyer. But, you know, then you take creative license, and you can sort of make things up from there. When you're doing a personal essay, you really can't make things up. Of course, it's your interpretation of the events, but it's meant to be what actually happens. So they're a little different. So I would say books came first. But I also love writing essays, and I love that, you know, a book is 300 pages. It takes me, like, six months to a year to write a book. An essay I could write in an afternoon. And there's something so wonderful about, you know, the writing life. Getting something actually done feels good. So I sort of still love doing both, I have to say. You know, the personal essays are harder to publish now, but I still like writing them. [00:10:06] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. I was thinking, that's so interesting, because I did it the other way around. I wrote essays well before any sort of book thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My first essays were. Well, they were like local newspapers, and then, like. Yeah, well, whatever. Small national newspapers, like, in small cities. But, like, that's. That was where I started first. And I always wanted to write a novel, but it felt so daunting. And an essay I could do, I can do. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:10:41] Speaker C: And I. I'm now going back to it. Oh, I. I will say this. I pitched. I was asked to pitch, and I pitched an essay for a literary magazine, and I just had the meeting with the editors, and now I think, oh, I think I have to actually write it. Like, I was like, oh, it seems so cute, like an idea. I was like, oh, let me just pitch and see what I can do. And then I, like, had the meeting, and now I. Oh, yeah. So we'll see if that happens. I don't know what I was thinking. Usually I write the essay and then pitch it later. And I've never done it the other way around, not 20 years. And now I'm like, oh, I told you I have an idea. And you're like, is it gonna be funny? I was like, no. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God, no. I'm trying to think. I don't think I've ever just pitched an essay. I usually write them because I feel like, you know, what's that saying where it's like, I had no time, so I wrote a long letter or something like that. Like, a short letter would take you so long. So sometimes, like, the pitch is harder than just writing the actual essay. [00:11:48] Speaker C: I don't disagree. I just wanted to not. As I age, I feel like I want to not do the work unless the payment is guaranteed. But I see the. So the payment's guaranteed. I just have to. I have to write it if the essay is accepted. I was like, okay. [00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:07] Speaker C: Anyway, I. All that said, I do enjoy essays. I still do them, like on substack to some degree, but they're not that deep. They're. When. Let me say this. In the beginning of my writing career, what I found delightful was if I wrote. I had a column, like a bi weekly column, like maybe 20 years ago, back when that was a thing. And, well, I think the publication, like all of them, was now defunct, so. And it was a great palette cleanser in between trying to write 75,000 words. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:42] Speaker C: So I didn't. I like the alternate and. But I think after having a child, I could not do that and write books. So something had to go. And I think that the essays went and I miss it. And I keep thinking I'm going to get back to it, but maybe in a few years. Um, so do you. Are you writing many essays now or. No. I mean, I know the market. It's, you know, newspaper publications, contraction, so on and so forth. [00:13:12] Speaker A: It's really tricky. I'm not writing as many as I used to, mostly because of what we're talking about, that they're hard to place. And now the contracts have gotten harder. They want, like, to own all of the rights to the story. So in theory, if someone wanted to pick up your personal essay as a movie, the publication would own the rights. So. [00:13:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:13:31] Speaker A: So many things have changed, so I'm not as focused on doing them anymore. But, you know, with the right idea, maybe I would. I don't have any essays I'm working on now, although I am working on a speech. Because this is like, so crazy. I haven't publicly talked about this, but I'm having an adult bat mitzvah. I never had my bat mitzvah when I was 13, I dropped out of Hebrew school as a kid. So part of it is giving a speech. And it's very much like I told my kids, you know, writing an essay is sort of like everything. So the speech is kind of like a personal essay. So I'm essentially writing a personal essay about why I dropped out of Hebrew school. [00:14:12] Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's fascinating. You know, I'm gonna be more honest. Okay, this is the weirdest thing. So when I was driving, I do my thinking while driving. So I was driving that I can tell you where, because I was taking a right from Fairfax to get on the 10 freeway, and I was thinking about adult, like. Well, in this case, adult bar mitzvahs. So people in my family did this, but really were like, yes, but let me. The cop. Let me get the big caveat. They were in their 80s. So these are the people that are like our. My parents generation, but slightly older, like, grandparent age. And I was driving, so the person I was actually thinking about is dead, so I can't ask him, but I was. I. And at the time he did it, which was maybe, like, 10 years ago, I'd have to think about it. I wouldn't have asked this question. But I was driving, and I was wondering what made him do that. The reason he didn't have it, because it was the 40s and it was the war and all that, or 50s, whatever, right after the war. So I. I understand, like, that time. And I mean, I understand. I'm not misunderstanding that. But I wonder, like. I mean, there's. There's space between, you know, 19, like, 40, whatever, and, you know, like 2,000. So I. I was thinking, I wish I had asked before he died what had made him make that choice. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that, because the class started bigger and it was mostly people. That demographic, older people. It is mostly women in their 80s. [00:15:45] Speaker C: Okay. [00:15:45] Speaker A: And. And it runs the gamut why people did it. So a lot of people, it's like you're saying, like, it just wasn't being done because the time when they would have had it. It's also that things have sort of changed back then for those women. And for me, to a lesser extent, though, women weren't really being. [00:16:04] Speaker C: No, absolutely. Yeah. [00:16:06] Speaker A: So at the temple that I went to growing up, it's not what we would call egalitarian. Women were not allowed on the bema, which. The pulpit, essentially. And so if you were. So if I had had a bat mitzvah, I would not have been allowed to have it Saturday morning like my brother did, like my husband did. I would have had to have Friday night when. And the reason why Friday night is like a. You know, like, not as good as Saturday. They don't know. [00:16:35] Speaker C: A couple of those. When I was 13. But yeah. [00:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think it was, like, part. That part, I was like, what is this, they're speaking a different language. But you know, around the time my kids were being bar mitzvahed, I was sort of like, wow, I don't know any of the prayers, I can't read any of this. I couldn't help them. Which was like, weird. I was like. So the first thing that started, I was like, well, I don't want to embarrass my kids. I want to know like some of the prayers. So I started getting a little more into it and then, and then I just sort of kept going. And then when my temple offered this class, I was like, oh, I should do it. So I learned how to read Hebrew. It's been like two years. I learned how to read Hebrew, Yeah. Which is like, it's harder to learn a new language when you're older, of course. And it's, it's especially harder to learn a different language with different characters. Right? [00:17:23] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [00:17:24] Speaker A: I still sometimes confuse some of the letters because I'm like just learning it now. But it's been great and I'm really enjoying it and I'm getting a lot of satisfaction. And my 15 year old said to me, he said, this might be weird to say because I'm a kid and you're an adult, but I'm really proud of you for doing this. I was like, thanks. So. So yeah, it was just something I really wanted to do. And I think, you know, my mom died almost two years ago. In April would be two years. Thank you. And you know, she was always like so upset that I'd never been bat mitzvahed. So when I started talking about it, she was still alive. And she's like, yeah, you gotta do it. So she since died, unfortunately. But I also do feel like this like honors her memory. So it's like a lot of things for me, but also it's really interesting and I'm enjoying learning. So that's fun. That's been really fun. [00:18:16] Speaker C: It's just, it's just an interesting process. I don't know why I, like, I sometimes I wonder like when you're driving, like. Well, when I'm driving, because I'm in la, I spend a lot of time like in the car not going very far. But I was like, well, no, I mean, you know, my car has like 20,000 miles and it's like six years old. So I just. It takes an hour, it's five miles. So I just don't know what like struck me about it, but I was really thinking a lot about those kind of choices later. In life. Because I feel like as we. Or as I get older, as me and like my cohort get older, we start thinking about things we wish we had done and then also regrets, I guess. Like, it's two. The things we wish we had done, the things we wish we hadn't done. [00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. [00:19:04] Speaker C: But I do find, especially as some of us have, like, greater means, people, I don't call it filling in the gaps, but doing those things we can do now that we wish we had done previously. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Right. That's interesting. Yeah, it's. [00:19:21] Speaker C: Well, it's interesting because I think people are. Well, I'm in my 50s, are just at the age where they, like, have more time, more money, and more introspection. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:33] Speaker C: And those three things coming together, I mean, we're not 70. You know what I mean? Like, before it gets a little harder. [00:19:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:42] Speaker C: Are able to do that, do you think? Okay, I'm gonna go back and ask a different question. So how. Okay, I'll ask you this because actually I, I want. I. Why did you go to law school? I always want to know why people went. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. I was, like, obsessed with becoming a lawyer my entire life. When I was a little girl. If, like, I was always a good reader, a good writer, and I think adults were always like, you'll be a lawyer. So from a very young age, I had just sort of like, decided I wanted to be a lawyer, but. But ever since I can remember, I actually wanted to be a judge. So I just figured that I would go to law school, become a lawyer, and then somewhere down the line, become a judge. And so I went to law school and that was like my goal, you know. I know a lot of people who do it as like a backup plan or they don't know what else to do, but I very much wanted to be a lawyer. So. And, you know, I think I loved being a student. Like, I loved college, I loved law school. I didn't like practicing law. And although I shouldn't say it that way, there were a lot of things I liked about the practice of law. I love being surrounded by, like, ridiculously smart people all the time. And I loved, you know, the complexity of some of the cases and how interesting some of the work was. I didn't love working till 10 o'clock at night, every night. That was not my favorite thing. So, you know, I think. And I. It's so funny, you were talking about, like, regrets. I often think, like, what if I hadn't made Law Review? What If I couldn't have gone to the big firm and I just went to, like, a regular law firm, how would my life be different? You know, maybe I would have practiced in a different area. Like, maybe I'd still be at this little law firm that I made up in my head, you know, but the truth. But I went the big firm route, and I definitely got burnt out. I then clerked after that, which, you know, I loved. I hated. It was like a little of everything. I. You know, the hours were different. The. Just everything about it was different than what I thought in my head. And I remember I went back to my firm, and one of the partners was like, how's your clerkship? Do you love it? And the thing was, when you clerked, everyone's like, I love it. I love. It's the best experience of my life. I love it so much. And I remember he's like, so do you love it? And this was someone I was close with, so I. I didn't want to just do the party line of, oh, I love it. Because, like, I didn't. And so I, like, pulled him aside. I was like. I was, like, whispering, you know, it's okay. You know? And he's like, what don't you love? I said, you know, I think I thought my judge would maybe be more of a mentor. He's like, oh, you sound just like my wife. Did you think these female judges, like, do you know how hard it is to become a federal judge? Did you think she's just sitting there waiting to. To pull you under her wing? And when he said it that way, I was like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. Like, it's not that. Especially for a woman. My judge was a minority. Like, especially for a minority woman, like, to become a judge is ridiculously difficult. So. Right. She's not exact. It's not story time. Like, you have federal cases. Like, one of my big cases was a habeas corpus case. Like, someone was in jail. Like, this is serious stuff. It's not like, ooh, let me pat your head. So I think, you know, coming from the big firm world, where, you know, the most junior associate doesn't have, like, a ton of responsibility, all of a sudden, you're thrust into. You're doing stuff with the judge, and there's only so many people in chambers. Like, it was just, like, a big shift. And so obviously she wasn't going to sit there and sort of be like, let's talk about you. She had, like, a massive caseload. And, you know, I I. I do think I had, like, made it out in my mind's eye to be one thing. And after I spoke to him, I was like, oh, right. Like, this is serious stuff. Like, this is a federal clerkship. Like, stop dilly dally. So then, you know, I had a different perspective. And then things were definitely different from there. But, you know, I. I guess I was also surprised it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Then I went to a smaller firm and I just, like, it was. I like to joke, it was like, case all our hours, but without the case, all our salary. So it was like I was working just as much as my big firm, but, like, without the salary. And that's when I started saying, like, this is, like, not working out. I can't seem to find my place. Like, I need to, like, segue into something differently. But around then, for my 30th birthday, my best friend organized a group gift and she got all my friends together and they sent me to a writing class. [00:24:03] Speaker C: Oh, my God, that was great. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it was life changing. You know, she said, you're always talking about writing, now you're actually gonna do it. And so they signed me up for this class and I took this writing class. And that's sort of when everything changed, you know, because for the first. For the most part, it's like Tuesday nights you have this class, right? So all of a sudden, I'm setting aside time for writing. And then the writing class would give you homework, which I think everyone else took as, like, a joke, but, you know, I was like, you know, a really good student. So I'm like, oh, I have homework. I have to do it. I would set aside time to get this homework done. So that was the first time I really took writing seriously. And around that time, chick lit was like this really big movement. And I started reading books. And I was like, this is the kind of book I want to write. Like, these people are writing books that sort of speak to me. It's about these, like, smart women. But it's really funny and fun, and it's not, like, overly serious. And I was like, this is what I want to be writing. And so that sort of dovetailed into my first novel, which was about a Manhattan lawyer who goes to her ex boyfriend's wedding. [00:25:11] Speaker C: Okay, so I have a thousand, so can I. I'm gonna ask you. Okay, let me say this so well, I. I think my listeners know I went to law school. I don't talk about it much because I didn't want to go. [00:25:24] Speaker A: Oh really? [00:25:26] Speaker C: I, it was a parent pleasing move. And also so I, you know, I was like sitting in college my last year and people were, I don't know when you graduated? When I graduated. Well, this is, I don't know, this is actually still true. People were like, I'm going to work for Goldman Sachs, you know, or, or, and make at the time 40,000 was like starting for some of those with bonuses or I'm going to go work for a New York publisher or CNN at the time which paid $15,000. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Oh wow. [00:25:53] Speaker C: And so people went like one of two routes or graduate school. I mean that was like, that's where I went to school, I'm sure other schools, I went to a small school. So other schools had probably a whole different thing going on. So people were, and I was sitting there and I was like, well, I don't know what I' do. And my mother was like, you should go to law school. And. But it was, it was a little more pressure than that. I might be saying it in a much more light hearted way. So that's, that's why I went. [00:26:23] Speaker A: Oh wow. [00:26:24] Speaker C: Yeah. It's not, it was not my best decision ever. But I, so when I left school I actually had no intention of practicing. I was going to go, I wrote before and I was going to go back to writing. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Oh wow. [00:26:38] Speaker C: But then there was a lot of like, well, why don't you want to practice law? If you, if you haven't tried it, you don't, you might like it. I did not like it, but I will. So I'm going to ask you this because I tried different things. I'm like, if I do this, if I go in, in house, if I do this, if I do that, it'll be different. And they were different on a surface level. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:59] Speaker C: But I found, I found the responsibility frankly too stressful and I did not want, I. There was not enough money. Let me not say this probably is enough money in the world but for me there was not enough money in the world to take on this level of personal responsibility for solving people's problems. Yeah, it felt so. Not moment. I can't think of the right word, but it felt like a lot. And people put a lot on you and even when you push back at clients you're like, make the decision. And they're like, but what would you tell me to do? And I'm like, I don't know, my circumstances are different. But did you let me ask you this because we were talking off Mic about publishing, what I will say this. What I found about the practice of law is changing from place to place to place. It was like moving from one publishing house to another. And I don't think the differences were as great as I thought they would be. [00:27:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I would have to agree with that. Absolutely. [00:28:03] Speaker C: I mean, people were like, well, if you don't do litigation and you're in. Or you do real estate, which I actually didn't dislike, but I paid off my loans, and I was like, what am I doing here? Like, the day I paid him off, I was like, ow. So I didn't mind that. And being in house, actually, I didn't really enjoy that. I didn't really understand the dynamics of the business guys making deals, and then you have to write a contract to contort to their deal, but also try not to break flaws or regulatory schemes that I didn't enjoy, but I didn't. But all of it came with a hefty responsibility. And, I don't know, other than being, like, a doctor, it all feels like a lot for a job in service of other people. But there's a lot Lane laid at. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Your feet, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. [00:28:56] Speaker C: And the district court thing you're talking about. So. So I was thinking about this. So my ex had a appellate, like, in the sixth district, six circuit. Excuse me. Clerkship. But I'm gonna be honest. There was a district judge in there who was like a mentor. I was thinking about you. She had her bagels. I forget what she had, like, bagels or brownies. I can't remember. It was a B thing for her clerks. But the clerks, I'm gonna say this, just felt that she was too intrusive. And they were like, oh, I know a judge that you would have liked. So she was all into, like, I'm gonna mention you, take you under the wing. And everybody felt it was too much. I. I didn't work in the chamber, so I don't know. Like, that's just what the people were saying, you know, outside. But it was interesting. But the stakes, at least in, like, the federal cases felt. Felt so high because 50 of them were like. Well, 50 of them were criminal, and then the other ones were some, like, civil things where you're just like, so this whole town was poisoned, and now they're appealing this technicality, as people would say. And you're like, right. I mean, you know, and then you could see the. At least I could see back then, like, different judges who were appointed by different Presidents had very different takes on interpreting things that were more, Couldn't be seen, more or less straightforward. That's, you know, my opinion. And it was. I think I wanted it to be better. Like, I didn't want there to be bias. I didn't want there to be politics. And I know they're political appointments. I mean, I mean, I understand that, but I think I just wanted it to be different and reflected society in a way that I, I didn't enjoy. [00:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, everything you're saying hits home. Yeah, it's crazy. I think we have this like, idealized version of what things are going to be and then you get there and, you know, like, for me, I'd spent my whole life dreaming about this and I was like, this was not my dream. [00:31:01] Speaker C: What's happening? [00:31:03] Speaker A: Very disconcerting. [00:31:05] Speaker C: So wait, but can I ask you this, because I know people who won't try to achieve this after clerking. Is there a reason why you didn't think, I mean, okay, the 30th birthday gift notwithstanding, is there a reason that you didn't think, okay, now I'm going to try to be a judge because I was in court. I was telling you off the other day. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, that's the only. That it looks like the only good job in the house. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:31:29] Speaker C: No, no, I don't want to be this lord. I mean, this lawyer. I want to be the bailiff. I don't want to be your clerk. I don't want to be this whatever. But you look like you have the only good job up there. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I did. I did pursue it after I clerked. And I did have a law school professor who wanted to sort of like help me, but. And you know, he would, he was just telling me the different pathways. But what I realized was I just did not have the stomach for politics. And so for me, it was like a non starter. I was not going to be able to do what I needed to do to become a judge, let's just put it that way. [00:32:05] Speaker C: So I think so I've known people who've had a similar experience. I don't think. I don't know anybody. No, I know one person who became a judge, but, um, someone I clicked. [00:32:14] Speaker A: With became a judge. Actually, she sits on a bench now. And I remember when she was appointed, I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I wanted to do, but I took a different path. And that's okay too. [00:32:27] Speaker C: No, because I think we looked at the appointment process in California. So on The east coast, like the. Well, it depends. Obviously, it's all different. Some are. Some are elected. So there's that process where federal appointments, which is its own process. California has like a dual process of election and. Or appointment. Or appointment in the election to be retained. I mean, it's a lot. And all of it was navigating politics in a way that I was like, oh, yeah, right. Well, if you go to this guy, I mean, it was sort of. It felt like like 1960s Chicago. And it was like, so you go meet this guy in the back room. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Wanted me to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:33:06] Speaker C: And I was like, wow. Like, I. But also. No, just wow. I'm sorry. I was like. And I couldn't. I didn't. I didn't do it. I didn't. Nobody. I. Well, I know one person, but only one person I know willingly made that effort. Say that. Right? Yeah. It's its own thing. So all that said. So you're saying the writing class, the catalyst. I actually, I had a similar experience. I took a writing class at the New School, and it was sort of like, oh, okay, I got it. Awesome. You know, because the writing assignment, like, it was somebody who was like, the class is called finish your damn book. And that's half written book that had sat around for four or five years, which is, you know, a lawyer who decides to open her own practice in Cleveland, Ohio. I have nothing. I know nothing about that practice personally. But so it was. It. It was modeled on my practice, not my personal experience, actually, because she's much more rags to riches story. But I. But the class was a catalyst in finishing the book and moving forward. So when you took the class, did it. Did you get a whole book done or did it, let me say this, propel you to get an entire book done? As opposed to. A lot of the people I know who took the class with me did not finish a book. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Right. I don't know anyone in my class who went any further. But that class, it started with a writing exercise and that became my book. And I finished that book. And at the time, I thought that I would only write the book. And the goal was just to, like, complete this project and then I'd feel really good about it. But it turns out I'm kind of type A. And when you're type A and you finish a book, you're like, how hard could it be to get it published? So I was like, let me do that. And I didn't know anything about it. And I think if I'd known anything about the process. I would have been terrified and been like, okay, that's enough. But I didn't know anything. I was like, let me write to agents. And so I got an agent and then I got a book deal. And, you know, it just all sort of like, happened. Now that I know more about how the sausage is made, I'm like, how did that happen? How did I do that? But. But I did. [00:35:24] Speaker C: I think there's a certain level, at least with books more than like, television or movies. And maybe I'm wrong. I just. From my experience living in la, I feel like books are about persistence. Like, it's. If you're, like, really persistent, I think you can, like, secure that sort of deal. Whereas I think, you know, making a movie like that just seems to me like in 10 times harder and much less likely. But probably because it's just so expensive to do books all cost millions of dollars. That'd be a different formula. How let me. Was your. How let me say this was your first publishing experience? Exciting. Like, I. Every step in the beginning felt like I should have a champagne toast. And I don't know, I don't feel that anymore. But that beginning, I remember getting like the. I'm so old. Getting the agent letter in by a FedEx, you know, in a FedEx envelope, because God knows that email is the way it is now. Did you. How did you expect that result? I mean, were you just like, I'm gonna put my head down and I'm just gonna, like, keep moving forward, or what was your thought upon getting the first deal? [00:36:48] Speaker A: I mean, I was so excited. Yeah, I was. And I have to say, that glass of champagne, whenever something good happens, I do try to celebrate every little win just because there's so many setbacks in a writing career. So I do think you have to celebrate the little win. So, yeah, I was like, deliriously happy. I think I thought that publishing a book was going to be like in the movies, where it's like. Like you're going to make a million dollars and they're going to make a movie and everything's going to be great and not the reality, which is that they're publishing like a million books a year and you're just wondering. So I did not know anything about the publishing industry, so I definitely. It was kind of like the clerkship. I thought it was going to be like in the movies, and it was not. [00:37:31] Speaker C: So what was. I will say this. I think I was just talking to somebody the other day who's just got their first Brick contract, and she's worried about her book tour. And I was like, I don't think that's your biggest worry, but I will. I'm trying to figure out, do we all have that dream? Because I remember sitting in my office and getting the letter of the call. Then they did send the contract. And part of me was like, people are going to read this book, and the book's not that great. Like, I'm not at all touting the book like it is what it is, and like, it's going to. I don't know what I. I thought was gonna happen, but I remember joining. This is, like, early Facebook days, the Facebook group of new authors of that publisher at the time. And then. And. But then you realize how it was a new imprint, you know, that goes. So it's. It's long defunct. I think Simon Schuster, like, well, who knows? Anyway, so I think that there was this idea that, like, I don't know, that I was gonna be plucked from obscurity or something and hit a bestseller list. And it just sort of whimpers out. And it was interesting. The thing about being in that group that was interesting is that I guess I knew that authors got, like, uneven treatment. Like, I guess I never thought it through. So then some people were like. It was like, you got. We talked about this. You got a mention in, well, all these magazines that are now defunct, but you would get, like, your mention in a magazine, and then the other person's got, like, an ad on a bus, Ben. [00:39:09] Speaker A: And you're like, yeah. [00:39:11] Speaker C: Oh. And I didn't think it was going to be as unfair. Not. Not. I'm saying, unfair. Let me see this. As uneven. Like, I didn't realize that. And I think I also didn't realize. I knew people got different advances. Like, I'm not so naive, but I don't think I knew that the marketing dollars were going to be kind of tied to the advance and what the. The editors thought the success of the book might be. [00:39:38] Speaker A: Right. That's something. Right. I didn't know any of that either. And that took me a long time to sort of figure out for sure. [00:39:46] Speaker C: Why. Why did we not know? That's like, a bigger question. I mean, the Internet, well, wasn't as developed, so there's that. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Well, right. And I think, you know, people don't talk about it as much. So, you know, since then, I'm sure you're the same. I've taken, like, plenty of writers under my wing, and. And, you know, every once in a while when I'm telling people the truth, they just like won't accept it. They're like, no, that's wrong, that's wrong. I'm like, it's right because I'm an author, I'm a published author and I'm friends with all these published authors and now we chat and so I know what my friends experiences are. No, no, no, that's not gonna happen to me. And I'm always like, you know what, good for you. I hope that's not your experience. I hope it's great. But so far not one of those people has like come back to me being like, like hahaha, you were wrong, I was right. Like I was sort of right about all of sucks, but it's the truth. It's just, you know, people don't want to look. Maybe I wouldn't have accepted the truth if someone had told me when I was publishing. Maybe I would have been like, you're crazy. But you know, it, what can I say? It's, it's hard. I think that you know, at this stage in my career I do try to sort of like help others and I try to be more honest about things to a certain extent, you know, and just helping younger authors and people like new in their careers. But, but yeah, it is always funny to see when people just do not believe me. I, I actually, I talked to my therapist about this a few weeks. Someone I'm trying to help out like will not listen to my advice and I'm like, at what point am I sort of like stop asking me for advice. You don't take it, you know? [00:41:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yes I do. I, I do have those moments. I just. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:29] Speaker C: I think I'm trying to think and I actually don't know. Actually it's not different now because I've still talked to authors who are newly published as their first deal and they're like, but the publisher promised me that I'm going to have all the marketing support in the world. And well I, okay, that's adorable. I thought that over zoom. But I think I like looked away because I think. No, because I think my son was sitting in the other room and he looked and he goes, do people believe that? And I was like, well I was like, but I don't. But what I said to him was, I think without that hope, I don't know if we could do it. Like if we didn't have that sort of blind optimism, who would sign that deal where you know, you're getting six seats or something? You know what I mean? For the print, whatever. [00:42:16] Speaker A: That's a really good point. [00:42:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Because he was like, but why? And I was like, I don't know. But I think there's. And there's a certain level of optimism, and I'm probably the wrong person because I think I'm getting to my pessimistic stage. I was talking to the pure. Well, I was talking to PR woman last week, and I was just like, yeah, you know, whatever. Not. Not probably not the attitude I should have had. But I. You know, I'll do these. Just. I'll do. I'll do whatever, and whatever happens, happens. Do you have. So do you still have that? A little bit of that. Because you've had, like, some successes or even, like, the book club stuff that's happened. And do you think so? Well, then what would be your dream now? You know? [00:43:03] Speaker A: Oof. Yeah. You know, it's so funny because it's like, as writers, you're trying to, like, get all these brass rings, right? So it's like you're hoping someone will option your book. And, like, once I got that, I was like, oh, my God. And now what? But there's, like, always another brass ring. Like, as writers, we're always moving the goalposts. So it's like there's always a million different. Different things, right? So for the Grace Kelly dress, we sold film rights, but then I said to my agent, I'm like, make sure I can write the screenplay. And he was like, they do not want you to write. I was like, okay. He's like, you've never written one before. You're gonna ruin your own book. So, you know, I'd love, like, I think the next level maybe is to sell film rights and get to write the screenplay or even just, you know, it would be an honor to be nominated. Like, it would be nice to be abstract, you know, something like that. Or, you know, there's like, a million different things you can sort of try to get. So there's always, like, more. But I do think at this stage, I'm trying to be happier with sort of what I have. Because especially, you know, when you talk to the people who are earlier on their careers, they're like, but you got this, you got that. And you're like, yeah, but I still want more. There's always more you could sort of get, and then you could, like, sell more books. And so you're always sort of, like, reaching for some brass ring. So there's like, a million different things I'd love to do. One is definitely to adapt One of my books. So, yeah, you know, there's always more. [00:44:30] Speaker C: Well, no, I'll say this. And I think about this only so often. So I know two different people who won an Oscar Wilde. Well, no, but both of them said at different times. I know them, actually. They probably know each other, obviously, but now they think about it. But I've talked to them separately about it. It. And they both. Well, the first person said it didn't fill the hole in my heart. So I was like, okay. Well, she said it was like, one morning. I don't know, I was tired, and I don't even know if I'd had caffeine. And she was like, you know, it didn't feel. She had just won. And she was like, you know, it didn't fill the hole in my heart. And I thought, okay. So. But then the next person I know who won, he. It was unexpected, I think. And, you know, some. There's some people who, like, have the buzz, and then there's always the unexpected person. So it was unexpected. And he, like, just, like, took off for six months to, like, try to find himself because he was like this. Because he thought that would be the thing. And then I don't know what the and then part is. I mean, like, in my head, I see it. It's like, and then. And then I would just sit home and look at it. I don't know what. I don't know what the and then part is. Like, I keep trying to figure it out, but from their perspective, the and then part is, well, now that I have this, like, now that I have an Oscar, there's not a lot of other things. Wow, now what? And I'm like, so I. Now I know. I know it's hard because when she first said it to me, like, I literally went home and I was like, I think I have to lay down. I was like, I didn't win the Oscar. I have to lay down. Because it's just so, you know, I was like, I'm gonna be in therapy for the rest of my life. Because if that doesn't do it, then what? Oh, yeah. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:10] Speaker C: And I think my therapist, who. Who's an LA therapist, is here from the future to tell us that she knows many of these people and they're still all seeing her. But I. [00:46:22] Speaker A: It's goodness. [00:46:23] Speaker C: So it's made me really think, then. Then what? You know what I'm saying? Because, like, then you sold the option. Then what? Or then I had the almost TV thing, and then it fell through. And then What? [00:46:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:34] Speaker C: And so I. I don't know. Let me say this. As I sit at my age now, I've started to think, then what is the. And then what? Because I don't know. So if I'm on the New York times bestsellers for 200 weeks or a book, and this is actually not my dream because I don't really enjoy movies in this way. Book was adapted into a movie and it became the it thing. Then what? Not because I still live here and have this life. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:06] Speaker C: But I. [00:47:06] Speaker A: It's something. [00:47:07] Speaker C: Yeah. It's just something I think about as I get older. And I mean, you know, there's a lot of people. I'm like, you hit USA Today or you hit New York Times. [00:47:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:15] Speaker C: Do the thing. And I've. It. And I don't know what the expectation is that that is what's gonna change. I guess that. Then question. What do you think would change if you got the thing you wanted? [00:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. And I think that's why now I try to just find all of my joy in the actual writing. Like, I used to. I used to say that, like, you know, the writing's the hard part. And then, like, afterward, the book comes out and you get to do the book tour. And that's like the fun stuff. But I actually think the reverse is true now. I think actually writing the book and the first draft, like, the messy first draft part of it is where I find the joy. Because that's when it's just like you and your ideas and your. You're figuring out what you think and you're sort of exploring what you think about the world and about people and blah, blah, blah, all that good stuff. So that's when I'm finding my joy. That's the part I'm really loving. I had a friend who told me she loves editing because that's like perfecting the book. And I realized that's not what I love. I love writing the first draft and just creating something. And that's what I like. Like the mess of just sort of creation the rest of it is hard for me. And even, you know, the touring is hard and meeting readers is hard. And the truth is, after my. Well, my mother died four days before the Audrey Hepburn estate came out. And, yeah, the day she died, I found out I was one of the picks for the CBS New York Book Club. So it was, like, very surreal because I was, like. I was supposed to be excited and I was happy about it. It just felt Like, I felt like, guilty for being happy about it. And so at my mother's shiva, the rabbi actually said, he's like, and also, you guys, you have to vote for Brenda's book. [00:49:04] Speaker C: Okay? [00:49:05] Speaker A: As we're sitting Shiva, and I remember my neighbor came and as we're talking, she's like, she's like, oh, wait, I forgot to vote for your book. [00:49:12] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. [00:49:12] Speaker A: It felt like, so weird. And there was like something gross to it, but kind of like the absurdity of life and laughter. And then I got it and I had to film. And I remember my agent, we had put off my book tour and my agent was like, can you do this? And I was like, I don't know, but my mother will literally come out of the grave and murder me if I don't, so I'm gonna have to figure out how to do it. So I did, but. And you know, it was hard, but it was also nice when you're grieving. It's nice to sort of like, act as if. Meaning, like, it's fun when you see people who don't know because you could just pretend you're normal. [00:49:45] Speaker C: Right. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Although I did, like, tell the butcher that my mother had died and my husband was like, why are you telling the butcher? And I'm like, I see him every week. Like, I felt like he needed to know. But, like, it's fun when you do these weird things and you can't be like, stuck in your grief. So it was like a weird time. But it was obviously like the biggest thing in my career. You know, I lost my train of thought because I'm talking about my mom. But. Well, no, like, you know, it's like you achieve this thing and it's like amazing, but it's like mixed in with other things that are, like, hard. And it would have been nice to just like, enjoy that with, like, pure joy. But that's not what life is. Right? [00:50:23] Speaker C: Like, I don't think life delivers those kinds of right. I'm trying to think. Yeah. I don't know if anybody gets one without the other. Like, it's just because. [00:50:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:34] Speaker C: I mean, you know, honestly, everything's in a parallel track, so things are. [00:50:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:38] Speaker C: Everything is going to be moving forward at the same pace. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Case. Yeah. [00:50:41] Speaker C: Did you. Well, okay, let me go back. What? Let me say this. Did you ever consider writing other genres? [00:50:51] Speaker A: Yes, I actually, I'm on contract now with Disney for a young adult novel and I'm like, loving it so much. I love tapping into like 17 year old me and writing from that perspective, it's a little scary how much I'm loving it, I have to say, so I really enjoy that. My age, how long will it be? [00:51:10] Speaker C: Because YA is shorter. [00:51:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, YA is a little shorter, but this is sort of. It's like a little more of a crossover. So it's, it's just gonna be. I, I feel like right now it's probably 80,000 words. [00:51:25] Speaker C: Oh, okay. Okay. So it's okay. [00:51:27] Speaker A: It's really the length of an adult novel. It's like an older ya. Okay, so she's 17, she's just graduated high school, so it's like a little more. It's definitely on the older end of ya. But yeah, so I'm really enjoying that. I, I could see myself doing a lot of different things. Like, I, I do think it's fun exploring different sides of myself, you know, and tapping into all of that. So, yeah, I love doing different genres. [00:51:55] Speaker C: Wait, will you use the same name? Like, will you be. Like, will you like, be. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Be. [00:51:59] Speaker C: You know what I mean? [00:52:01] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm, I'm always trying to change my name, actually. And they're always like, no, no, you're fans. And I always say, my mother's mahjong group knows all my names. Don't worry. At one point I was gonna like, change it to my married name. I'm like, no, no, they were at my wedding. They know my. Don't worry. But no, I'm still publishing under my maiden name, which also, I have to say, you know, as a working mom, feels good to keep it separate. I kind of like it now that I have, like, these two Personas. It's just funny when I go to like, a parent teacher conference and like, I don't know what name it is. I don't know what it's going to say. I don't know which Brenda it's going to be. And, and, and the funniest. One time I logged on and it was my son's thing and it had the name of a video game character. Like, I literally never know who I'm going to be when I get on Google Meets, so. But, but no, I do, I do like writing under my maiden name. I would write under a pseudonym for the right project because why the heck not? But yeah, the young adults coming out under my name, which I think that one's good to not have my married name because my kids, I'm sure, would be so embarrassed because they're so embarrassed that I exist, much less, you know, I'm writing a young Adult novel trying to be a 17 year old, so. But yeah. Yeah, so same name. And hopefully, you know, some of my readers will come along for the ride because it really is a crossover. Even though the characters are young. [00:53:24] Speaker C: Is it hard? So I, I now realize I. I have a certain age that I. Okay, let me say this. I like, if everybody in my book were in their mid-30s, I think I'd be in heaven for some reason. That's like the age I like to write the best. Yeah. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you feel like that's who you are on the inside? You know, like we're like one age on the outside, but like my inside age I think is closer to like 15. So 17 was fine for me. [00:53:50] Speaker C: Oh. [00:53:52] Speaker A: I was like to say I'm 30 on the inside, but I'm not. [00:53:55] Speaker C: Oh, I'm. Well now you ask. I'm either 17 or 36, depending on the day. Those are the two, like, those are good ages. I could see everything else. I don't know what happened. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:05] Speaker C: But yeah. What is it like shifting to a different age range? Because what I hear you're doing, I'm thinking, I don't even know if I could do that because I don't know if I could channel that. That. [00:54:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. [00:54:19] Speaker C: Person. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Oh my God, you can. I love it. Just very heightened emotions. So you get to just like write from like that pit in your belly. It's awesome. I love it. But you know, my last three books had like three different generations, so I was writing different ages for my last three books. And I do like writing like from the grandma perspective a lot. I've done that a lot. [00:54:42] Speaker C: Those are my readers favorite characters and I don't even think I write that well. But they're like, I love your older people. And I was like, they're like, they're funny and they're wise and I'm like, okay. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah, so I love that. Right. So I've been writing lots of different ages, but I don't know, 17 felt really good, I have to say. I think I have to discuss that with my therapist. Probably like why I'm so comfortable doing that. But I really loved it. It felt really good. It felt so good to like sort of be in that space. It felt like an escape. So yeah, I loved it. But yeah, I mean, I like writing. I hear you. I like writing 30s, but in the Liz Taylor ring, one of my protagonists, she was like early 40s and I really liked writing that as well because that's like a big shift for women. I think entering your 40s. So I really enjoyed that as well. [00:55:33] Speaker C: Can I ask you about that? This is for my own personal edification. I should probably edit it out. Yeah. So the book I'm currently writing, she is 40, I think she's 43. Okay. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:43] Speaker C: And I feel like, okay, I have a likability heroin problem. I'm. I'm aware of it. I'm not unaware, but I feel like she is, she's. She's a little cynical and I'm trying to walk the line between cynicism and some vulnerability. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Oh, that's tricky. Yeah. I mean my. The protagonist I'm talking about, she was a little more. She wasn't cynical, she was angry. She was a little bit angry. And she was also raising 16 year old twins. [00:56:21] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:22] Speaker A: So she was very much trying to be like the good mom and set the good example. Even though these teens pretty much do whatever they're gonna do regardless. But so that, that was sort of like my push and pull. So she had these 16 year old twins. She's trying to do the right thing. But of course she's filled with contradictions. So that was sort of how I found her. But I was able to tap in, I think more anger. To me, the early 40s is about like honing in on your anger as opposed to cynicism. [00:56:54] Speaker C: No, I'm thinking about that book about women's anger. You know, Emily Nagoski. But she and her sister I think wrote the. A book about. So she wrote this book called Come as yous Are. But her next book was more about women's anger. And I remember reading it and it's so interesting because she. I think women hide their anger and maybe not well. Like some. When she starts pointing out the things that women do in their anger that are sort of smoldering, I was like, oh, people are more angry than I thought. But they're really good at pasting over it with. With whatever it is. Like it's food or shopping or like, you know, breaking dishes in your house or whatever. The examples she was talking about. It was interesting. Do you think? Okay, but the book, the, like the Audrey Hepburn estate there was there. [00:57:45] Speaker A: I don't know, but they were younger. They. The. In the present timeline they were in their 30s. [00:57:51] Speaker C: Right. But there is a threat of. Well, I don't. So the anger, injustice, unfairness. What? Yeah, I don't know. [00:57:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a big. [00:57:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Is that a topic? Topic, theme. I think that you like to write. [00:58:03] Speaker A: About maybe as I'm getting older, I'm writing more about that. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I had it in the Grace Kelly dress. Yeah, I had a lot of anger in that, too. So, yeah, I do have to discuss all of this with my therapist. Okay, got it. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of unfairness, you know, with those three books. Books, they were very much inspired by the movie stars. So as I started researching the stars and learning about who they really are, that sort of informed the book and changed the plots around. So with Audrey, it was learning about this childhood experience that I'd never heard of before, which is that she lived through Nazi occupation in Holland, which I didn't know about. And I, like. I feel like a lot of people don't know this about her, and it's not something she spoke about a lot. Although she did later in life do a lot of work with unicef, which is the organization and a predecessor of it had sort of. She credits it with saving her. So. But she didn't talk about this experience. And even in the documentary they did a few years back, one of her sons said she did not talk about this. So when I uncovered that, I was sort of like, whoa, what's happening? I'm trying to write about, like, black dresses and Tiffany's over here and all of a sudden about, like, Nazis. But then I just sort of, like, went with it. I sort of let the research take me where it's going to take me, and it really does inspire me. So I think that's where sort of a lot of the anger comes from. So. [00:59:37] Speaker C: So do you then, if you. In this sense of why are they more hopeful or optimistic, would you say? Or just angsty? [00:59:49] Speaker A: The books or the characters? [00:59:51] Speaker C: The characters? When you write younger characters? [00:59:55] Speaker A: Oh, the younger characters are so hopeful. They have, like, their whole lives ahead of them. They don't know. They don't know, really. Like, in my young adult book in particular, you know, she. She, on a whim, decides to take a gap year before college, and she sets off for Western Europe and she doesn't know anything. She's like, oh, my high school Spanish has prepared me to speak to the locals in Madrid. And then she gets there and she's like, why is everyone speaking so fast? And so it's sort of like, about the. You know, learning about the world and stepping outside her little bubble. So I. She is hopeful, and then she gets a dose of reality. But then, of course, she meets fabulous friends who she starts traveling with, so ends up very, very hopeful. She stays up. [01:00:38] Speaker C: That's always good. We should all be so hopeful. [01:00:44] Speaker A: What. [01:00:46] Speaker C: What has made you. Let me say this. What kind of books did you read growing up then? Like, what kind of genres or did you read growing up? [01:00:54] Speaker A: I read everything growing up. I literally read anything I could get my hands on. I mean, literally anything. I was a very, very big reader. I was a big reader really until I went to law school and then like, just the massive amount of reading. There was no time for pleasure reading. And that was when I started needing reading glasses. But, yeah, I would read anything I could get my hands on it. Really. Everything. And I think people are surprised when they learn that. I love sci fi. I love dystopian. I think people who read my books are shocked by that. But I really do love all that kind of stuff because I grew up just reading literally anything and everything. Not horror, actually. I'm. I get too scared, so. I know. [01:01:39] Speaker C: I never thought. [01:01:41] Speaker A: But yeah, that's the only genre I sort of. Sometimes I'm just like, is this too scary? That's like the last time I was at Disney. My kids want to go on this roller coaster. And I say to the guy, I'm like, is this too scary for me? And he's like. He's like, it might be, I don't know. And I was like, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. And then it was literally, I screamed the entire time to the point one of my sons was like, you were screaming too much was scary. It went upside down twice. Okay, first you're like plunged into darkness and then it goes upside down. So I screamed my head off for three minute street and I went out and I found the guy. I'm like, by the way, that was too scary for him. He was cracking up. My husband was like, why are you asking some teenager if something's too scary? I don't know. So horror, a little too scary for me. But beyond that, I read, and I still try to read really, really widely because I don't. I don't like reading the same genre back to back because then inevitably you're comparing it too much. So I like a little of everything that's interesting. [01:02:40] Speaker C: I don't read the same genre back to back, but I never could tell you why. It's just. I don't think it's a comparison. Sometimes it's like, this is too much death. This is too much injustice. This is too much, you know, whatever. Like, I need to mix it up. Although right now I'm reading back to back nonfiction books and I think I may have to put it down. Oh, there's a book that's coming out, like, in a few weeks or maybe probably next week at the point that I've had it, like, called the Miseducation of, Like. Anyway, it's a very sad book about the structural problems with American education. Well, it's one of the topics I like to read about because I'm always interested in these structures in the United States. Well, actually, in many places that are in place that sort of bake in all sorts of issues. But. But last week I listened to a podcast about, oh, my God, the corruption of American reading programs, and I was like, oh, I think I can't do this back to back. Yeah, I was like, I need to take a break. Otherwise I may not be able to get up tomorrow. You know what I'm saying? But I do. Do you read a lot of nonfiction? [01:03:49] Speaker A: I don't read a ton of nonfiction. I am reading the Mel Robbins book now last. The Leca Theory. [01:03:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I read that last week. Yeah. [01:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, I. I don't read a ton of it, but I do read some. It sort of depends. But, yeah, I happen to be reading nonfiction right now, and I'm loving it, by the way. [01:04:09] Speaker C: Okay, so I have a question. What is it that. When you're reading fiction, what is it that you're looking for in the reading experience? [01:04:17] Speaker A: Ooh. I mean, mostly I just want to be entertaining, contained. I want to be taken away from my life for a little while. That said, you know, some books I read for plot. Some books I'm reading for character. You know, I. I read different books sort of with different expectations, and sometimes books, like, totally surprise me. Like, I. I read Interior Chinatown when it came out, and it's on my mind because I. I want to reread it because I just watched the Hulu series, which was. They were. The book was brilliant. The series was brilliant. But, like, you read something like that, and it's just like, you don't even know what genre it is. It's, like, so brilliant, so out there, so meta. And it's like a million different things. So I love reading something like that where I think I'm reading one thing, and then all of a sudden it, like, transforms into something else and kind of blows my mind. So, you know, I read for a lot of different reasons, I would say, but certainly if I'd picked up a nonfiction like what you described, I would definitely find, like, the juiciest, beachiest read I could find to sort of, like, let my mind like, reset for a minute and just be like, bliss. Pina coladas beach. You know, Like, I definitely do that a lot. [01:05:30] Speaker C: What. So let me ask you this, and maybe you know this from readers. I get reader email. What is it that readers do you think you're getting from reading your books? [01:05:43] Speaker A: Oh, wow. I don't know. The reader. Yeah. What do readers say to me? I. I don't. I'm trying to think of, like, the last email I got. It's like. It's so funny. You wish you could, like, remember all the nice things people said, but inevitably you only remember, like, the one nasty person and then who said something that. And you're just like, oh, my God, that's obviously the truth. Like, all these 20 other people were lying to me. [01:06:09] Speaker C: I know they're lying to you because they're fans, but this other person now pierced right through all that. [01:06:16] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. You know, I hope people are entertained because I really am trying to write something very entertaining. You know, I hope they, like, learn something about themselves, maybe. A lot of people tell me my books are heartwarming, which sounds great. I am happy. If I have warmed your heart, that's great. But, yeah, I don't know why I'm drawing a blank. Someone just wrote to me and it was so lovely, and of course, I immediately forgot it, but it's so touching and it sort of, like, makes your day. And sometimes those reader emails come in at, like, this random time when you're feeling down and you're like, okay, right, I need to keep going. This is great. [01:06:59] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's true. [01:07:01] Speaker A: Right? [01:07:02] Speaker C: Yeah, no, occasionally. Because, I mean, well, I have my email every morning and, you know, who knows what's there? I mean, there's lots of things, you know, there's lots of things in there, but. Oh, yeah, you know, would you like to buy these shoes? And then also, you know, this other stuff. But I think that they do come along. It always comes along when I think to myself, I should give this up. And clearly, like, somebody's gonna, like, one day, you know, unmask me and say that. I know you think you're writing books, but let me tell you what you're really doing in your house by yourself all day. And. But then I get the lovely emails where I love this ending, I love this character, and I think, oh, you got it. Like, you got it. Like you got it. So that's. It's. Those are good. I do get occasionally awful ones, like, oh, God. [01:07:46] Speaker A: Oh, God. [01:07:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, no, but occasionally they're just Random. They're like, there's just too much swearing in here. And I think, oh, I don't even think people swear that much. [01:07:52] Speaker A: But. [01:07:52] Speaker C: Okay, wait. [01:07:54] Speaker A: That's so funny. You got that? Someone wrote to me. And she had counted the number of curse words in one of my books. [01:08:00] Speaker C: Yeah, so. So there are those people. [01:08:02] Speaker A: No. And I was like, okay, great. Great job. It was so bizarre. Why didn't tell me that? [01:08:09] Speaker C: I thought it was odd. And I thought, okay. I thought, okay, well, then I guess, like, if. Look, as I get older, like, I am no longer completist. I used to actually finish every single book I started up until maybe about 10 years ago. And I was just like, no. So now sometimes I start a book and I think, oh, this may not be for me. So I can either write this whole book being angry and upset, or I could just close it, move to the next one. [01:08:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:08:34] Speaker C: So I'm a little bit more like that now. [01:08:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. It's the only way to be. And I think that helps you to read more is the other thing. People always ask me, you know, how do you read so much? And I think that's part of it. If I'm not in love with the book, after 50 pages, I just put it down, give it to a friend, put it in one of those free little libraries. Yeah, yeah. Like, just don't read it. It's not for you. And sometimes it's not for you at that moment in time, and that's okay, too. [01:09:02] Speaker C: I do wonder about that. Do you revisit? So, like. Well, this happens when I'm on an airplane, when I'm on a long flight. I take a lot of very long flights. And when I'm on a long flight and I. It's me and the Kindle. And that's the time I actually occasionally revisit things because I'm looking, I'm like, why? I'm like, there's 800 books or 500 books on here. Why can't I find nothing to read? And then I'm like. Then I look at them, I think, why did I get this? Let me see. [01:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:30] Speaker C: And I've come across a few things that way that just didn't hit the right way at the right time, right? [01:09:36] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. [01:09:39] Speaker C: So that's. It's. It's interesting. And now I have too many things on the Kindle. [01:09:44] Speaker A: And I was like, well, no, I. [01:09:45] Speaker C: Try to read three different things. And I was like, I don't. I don't. I can't. I can't even, like, concentrate. I don't know how I'm gonna get through this. What is it then? Well, let me say this. So have you ever had, like. How to say this? Some people I know have these burning desire to write that fantasy novel. Not me. Or that historical sweeping saga. Do you have any of those? Not aspirations. Because you could do it like some pie in the sky. Wish to, like, I don't know. Right. Like the next sweeping saga. [01:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, not in particular. I feel like the Burning Desire is the. I do have a book that didn't sell along the way, and I feel like that book, like, at some point I'll get to sell it. Like, every few years, I'll say to my aunt, what about? And she's like, no, no. But that's sort of my pie in the sky. Like, can something happen with that book? But no, not. No. No sweeping sagas. No. [01:10:47] Speaker C: Okay. So for the book that didn't sell, because I. Well, many of us have that story. We. Well, anyway. [01:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:55] Speaker C: Do you think. Let me say this. Do you think. Okay. Having published books and had success, do you think it's the. Was it the wrong book at the wrong time or is it too unique or too not unique or what do you think it was about that? Because people I know have a lot of feelings about it, but I don't know if the feelings are valid. Like, it. Well, it's not personal. I think nothing's personal anymore at all. So what do you think it was about? That? [01:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was too unique. Like, no one could figure out exactly what it was. It didn't fit into a box, which I feel like someone could have taken a chance on it and made it. You know, that's like a new thing. But no one wanted to. And everyone's like, well, we don't know how to market it. It's like, just the way you market everything else. Like, they know what books they want to sell, you know? [01:11:46] Speaker C: Right. So come on. [01:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah, kind of. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was sort of the idea, and I think that's why it didn't sell, but especially because I think, you know, when we went out with it, every editor said something sort of, like, different. So, no, it wasn't like there was a problem if X or Y or Z. But it all came down to, like, I don't know how to market this because it's. It was like a mix of two different genres, and it wasn't very. Like, I write women's fiction. They. They weren't sure if it Appealed to women. There were, like, a lot of questions. So every once in a while I'm sort of like, but wait, what about this? This is similar. And my agent's like, oh, my God, no. [01:12:32] Speaker C: Do you think. Yeah, I don't know. So it's hard. I think about this sometimes. So I know an author who wrote like. Like BDSM books before. Before 50 Shades came out, and she was really struggling against the tide, you know? And then I will say this. Even after 50 Shades, her books did not sell better, even with new. Than black and white, whatever, like object covers and some things. I wonder, I don't know, I wonder what causes trends. It's just interesting because when there's a trend, either publishers, like, leap on it and, you know, we're gonna have 24 vampire books, or we're gonna have 53 dystopian books with, like, you know, women or young women leads or whatever it is. And I. That zeitgeist word comes in case. I just sometimes do wonder if there were a way to market. Market. People don't know what they don't know, and if there's a way to market something new to people. Because I don't feel that there's a lot of effort into that, to being taste makers. I think that's what I want. I think I want publishers to try to be taste makers. [01:13:41] Speaker A: Right. [01:13:41] Speaker C: And I don't. [01:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:43] Speaker C: And I don't see that. [01:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed, agreed. But every once in a while, I feel like they'll take a chance on someone. It's just never someone like me. It's. Right. Like, often. [01:13:55] Speaker C: Yeah. That's so often. Right. Yeah. [01:13:57] Speaker A: And I'll. I'll say to my. Oh, but this person, she's like, well, that person's this. That. The other thing, you know, there's always like. [01:14:03] Speaker C: There's more to it. Yeah. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:06] Speaker C: That's so interesting. So let me say this. Do you have any regret going to law school? I guess I'll ask you that. [01:14:14] Speaker A: Oh, God, no. No. I wanted to be a lawyer desperately. So I. I wanted to do it. I did it. I also have no regrets leaving the law. I didn't want to be a lawyer anymore. I'm not. I don't practice. It's great. So no. No regrets on that front at all. [01:14:29] Speaker C: How many years did you practice? [01:14:31] Speaker A: About five, I would say. [01:14:34] Speaker C: Okay. [01:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, about five. Maybe six. No, about five. [01:14:39] Speaker C: Okay. And there's no. I just. I think. I don't know. I think about it, actually. I don't. Do I regret it? Oh, that's I probably. I try not to have regrets. So I made a choice, and that's the choice I made, and it's not going away. So, you know, where we are where we are. But I don't know if I would make that choice. So when. I don't know if you do you come across young lawyers now, ever? [01:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah, all the time. People are like, should my kid go to law school? And I'm always like, no. And people get so angry. I'm like, I hated it. And then, oh, but my kid's different. Okay, your kid's different. It's like. It's like the younger. The younger in their careers, writers. Oh, but this is different. Okay, so it's different. Good for you. [01:15:23] Speaker C: But, okay, let me say this because I do advice. My reasoning is actually different, I think. Well, for writers, I think they should write, but I think they should temper their expectations. I think with lawyers, I think I. I think the cost is actually very, very high. Like, I mean, the literal cost of school, like, the literal cost of school is very, very high. And I don't know if there's a clear result on the other end. [01:15:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. [01:15:51] Speaker C: I'm in, like, a lawyer group online, and I poke my head in. I actually don't practice law, but I like to read people's stories. Like, you know what's going on. And I think the thing that I, like, I'm finding most disheartening is that a lot of jobs are paying less than they paid. Like in LA, we're talking about less than they paid in 2000, 2001. [01:16:11] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:16:12] Speaker C: Like, literally less. So let's say it paid like, $60,000 a year. Now it pays 57. And that doesn't take into account inflation. So it's really a lot less. And somebody was saying today, like, they're like, you know, you can get paid more at Nordstrom. And so there's. Well, I think because of the sheer number of lawyers, there's a lot of pushback on wages. I mean, you know. [01:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:35] Speaker C: When you have as many people as you can choose from, wages go down. And I think that's the hardest part, because I was like, when I was sitting in court last week, I looked at that and I thought, yes, we do need, like, pro bono attorneys, and we do. And I did some pro bono stuff for the fires, and I was like, there's a huge need, but I don't know, there's not enough money in it. I don't know how to say, like, there's A huge need. So of course, course, like tons of people need like really good lawyers, but the lawyers have to eat, you know, like in a high cost of living area. And I don't know how to, how to make that balance. [01:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Very tough. Yeah. Yeah. [01:17:15] Speaker C: I don't know. For authors, I think hopefully it's different. Well, there's no, there's, there's the sacrifice of time, but you don't have to pay tuition. Right, Right. Yeah. Okay, so this is my last question, I think. Well, I asked this of many people taking into like, account, like all the books you've written, do you think that there are consistent themes across your books that you see now that you perhaps didn't see while writing? [01:17:46] Speaker A: Yeah, there's this expression that an author is always writing the same book over and over again. And I do think my book books, at least when I'm writing them, I feel like they're dramatically different. But I do think there are certain themes we all come back to and certain, like, scars that we're sort of always writing about. So all of my books feel like a coming of age and I think that's why the young adult felt so natural. So, yeah, they're like, in some ways my characters have to grow up. So I think that's something that's, that you could see across all my books. [01:18:20] Speaker C: Books. [01:18:20] Speaker A: So I do think there's something to a writer writing the same book over and over. Not, of course, the literal same book. Like I was saying to my therapist, like, am I only going to write books about people with dead moms now? Because every project I start is like, about grief now. And she's like, maybe, but like, not the rest of your life, but for now maybe. Because the thing I picked up, it was like supposed to be this like, funny rom com and all of a sudden I'm writing about grief. I'm like, like, where'd that come from? So she's like, yeah, that might be So I do think people do sort of tackle the same thing over and over again. [01:18:56] Speaker C: Do you ever go back and reread book the books you've written? [01:18:59] Speaker A: Oh, God, no. No, no, no. You couldn't pay me enough money to do that. No. [01:19:05] Speaker C: Oh, this is so interesting. [01:19:07] Speaker A: You could pay me enough because if they asked me to do a movie adaptation, I would go back and read it. But no, I, I, I have no desire to, to do that. [01:19:15] Speaker C: Why not? [01:19:17] Speaker A: I just think I would cringe and die and try to buy back the rights to everything so no one could ever read them again. [01:19:25] Speaker C: I only asked because I was somewhere and I picked up a book I had written in 2014, and I read like, the, I don't know, the first, like, let me say 14 pages. Like, it didn't get that far. But I thought to myself, it felt very foreign to me. Like, it was. And I thought, well, I know I wrote it. Like, I'm, you know. But I was like, this is a little, this is a little weird. Like, because it didn't feel. In my head, it would have felt like, oh, I remember exactly, you know, writing this. And it. There was some distance that I did not anticipate. [01:20:00] Speaker A: Wow. Huh. [01:20:03] Speaker C: Just a little fun exercise. Did you choose to, like, pull a book off Dangerous? [01:20:09] Speaker A: Yes. [01:20:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, no. I actually, it's because a friend suggested that I buy, not buy, display, like, take out every book I've ever written and put them on the mantle. Because sometimes when I'm sitting writing, it feels like I'm just starting from scratch. And I've never done anything in my life. And so when she said that, I was like, oh, that's a good idea. And then I pulled one down off the mantle and I was like, oh, my gosh. And I put it right. It was a little. It was a little disconcerting. That's all I'm gonna say. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:20:38] Speaker C: So I'm gonna, I, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. [01:20:45] Speaker A: So much fun. [01:20:46] Speaker C: And I'm gonna leave you in rainy, snowy New York while I sit out here and look at the clouds in rainy Los Angeles. I swear, it just so rarely happens. And now I. But I got to wear rain boots, so I'm excited. [01:21:00] Speaker A: Here we go. Wow. Silver linings. I love it. [01:21:03] Speaker C: I love. But I want to thank you for taking the time and I wish you so much luck going forward with, like, branching out into new things because it's always, it's super exciting to, to try something new, I think, and see where it goes. [01:21:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. [01:21:22] Speaker C: So thank you, Brenda Janowitz. And I, I, I can't wait, wait to see what comes. [01:21:28] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you so much. Likewise. [01:21:34] Speaker D: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. I'll also please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in Nicole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold. You're your local library and also an audiobook. My next book, His Last Mistress, is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. You can find me on TikTok at SocialThriller author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at A Time to Thrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations. [01:22:43] Speaker A: Sa.