Episode 57: A Time to Thrill – Conversation with Aime Austin – featuring Kara Infante

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the joy of speaking with podcaster Kara Infante, who is the host of the podcast Bookish Flights. It's super interesting to talking to a reader who is a creator but not a writer. [00:00:28] Speaker C: Obviously. [00:00:28] Speaker B: I spent a lot of time talking to writers, even one of the painters I have on the show as a writer. This conversation is super interesting because we talk about what women do to enhance their creative lives in light of everything else that's going on. I think we've talked about this previously in many, many contexts, but maybe it's gelled a little bit more here. A common thread among the women I interview is, or rather well, is the accommodation that they have to make for family. It is well known that men don't have to necessarily make these accommodations. There have been a ton of books about this in the last couple of years. But bottom line, just because women have children or move to follow their husband's career does not mean that their creativity goes away. And what I find quite fascinating is the the amount of creativity that brilliant women creators have and the ways that they adapt that as well as pursue careers that can fit around family life. So I hope you enjoyed this April conversation. Okay, so April, so this comes out on April Fool's Day. No jokes here. I'm super excited because this month, finally is the release of His Last Mistress. If you haven't pre ordered it, please do it now. Pre orders help authors in unimaginable ways. I have been out promoting this book in various places and I'm certainly share those links with you as they come up. What I think is super interesting about this book, it's actually the same to many of my books, but it's the reaction to the ending. The book has been out to reviewers and 99% of them love the book, love the story, and get up in the fast paced storytelling to get to that ending. Some of the best reactions I've actually received in the last few weeks is that readers have said they didn't see the twists coming, which as an author I cannot tell you how satisfying that is. And I will say this as a writer and I shared this with someone in the last couple of weeks, I too did not see the twist coming. I wrote the story, it was like sort of leaning one way as an ending. And I thought to myself one day when I was out walking or biking or doing something physical, this is actually not the ending, the ending is something different. And that new ending came to me And I really, really like it. Endings are not my strong suit for books. I'm so strong in the beginning, but I do really struggle with endings. But for once, I really think the twist in this ending is compelling and packs a punch. So, with all that said, the book is coming out April 24th. Pre order it now, and it'll appear in your e reader sometime between, like, April 23rd and 25th. Those world clocks are a mess, and every retailer seems to have a different definition of midnight. With that said, let's get to this interview. What? I'll say this. [00:04:44] Speaker C: What? And I think I may have talked. [00:04:45] Speaker B: About this during the podcast, but I did find it hilarious that when I was talking to my son about interviewing Kara, he had no idea what a flight was. And I was like, wine flights, whiskey flights, there are many flights. But this is the first time that I've ever encountered bookish flight. I think you'll love the concept and love this interview. So, without further ado, Bookish Flight podcaster Kara Infante. [00:05:17] Speaker C: Hi, and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month, I have the delight of speaking with Kara Infante, who is a podcast host of a podcast called Bookish Flights. Hi. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Amy. [00:05:34] Speaker C: How are you? [00:05:36] Speaker A: I am doing good today. You know, my mom is visiting, so I got help with my kiddos. And that's always nice to have an extra set of hands around the house. [00:05:45] Speaker C: I. I don't. Yes, yes. I was just actually talking to. So I'm still friends with the woman who is the nanny for my son. And so we were just talking about raising, and she was like, an extra pair of hands is always good. And I was like, yes, I had you. Like, I knew. Yes, yes, yes. I. Yes. So I appreciate hands, no matter how you get them. [00:06:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:06:11] Speaker C: So you live in San Diego? I spent a summer in San Diego when I was 16. I had decided that California was this magical place that I might want to live one day. And my mother's like, you should spend some time there. And we had a family friend who lived in San Diego, so I spent the summer in San Diego, and it turned me into a California Congress. [00:06:29] Speaker A: So we lived here for one year, and then we had to move away. And we've been back and we are going to hit it. We're like, our fourth year is coming up this summer, so my husband's in the military, and so we move quite a bit. But we actually will be here for six years this round, which is amazing. We've never got to stay somewhere that long. [00:06:47] Speaker C: Wow, that's, that's actually great. And I think the weather actually on San Diego is actually. I mean, I can't say this out loud. Better than la. I really like them. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Interesting. See, I've only driven through la, so I can't speak to LA much. [00:07:02] Speaker C: It's a little hotter here and we don't have the breezes. They don't feel as strong because of the way, the way the, it curves down around la, the way the ocean or the land curves. So San Diego is a little more straight and so it's a little more, well, direct. And we have a lot of things going on. So let me ask you this. So your husband's in the military. How long have you been moving around? [00:07:30] Speaker A: So he just said it the other day. I was like, wow, 15 years we've been moving. [00:07:35] Speaker C: Okay, so. [00:07:37] Speaker A: And we thought we would do like three years and see how it was. I, I met him before he joined the Navy. We're both physical therapists by trade, so we met in school before he joined. And I was like, well, let's just try it for three years and see. And then it was, well, let's do for 10 years, because you can get a GI bill to give to your children after 10 years. And so we're like, let's go for 10. And now here we are at 15. So it's amazing, the whole shebang, right? [00:08:01] Speaker C: I mean, you're, you're getting close to the other end. I mean, I, I have a friend, I have several authors I've actually interviewed on the podcast, and a friend who I just talked to last week and her husband. They started off with the same thing, and when they got to about the 15 years, he's like, I'm just going to stay till retirement at this point. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you're only to 20 at that point. It's only five more years, which seems like a blink of an eye. So. Yes, absolutely. [00:08:27] Speaker C: So have you been abroad or where have you been stationed? [00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah, we've been so lucky. We, Our first duty station was Hawaii, so that, like, sold us right away. We get, like, we get to live in Hawaii, and then we moved to Virginia beach, and then we went to Sicily for three and a half years, which was fantastic. And then we've been here and we've been kind of on the West Coast. We've been here to Washington State and back. [00:08:50] Speaker C: Okay, you have been really lucky. Like, that's, there's, there's no bad placements there. I'm just going to say this down to the Air Force. There's a lot of bad placements there, so they all seem that. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Or the Army, I think even Marine Corps, I feel like at least Navy around the coast. So it's going to be fairly decent. [00:09:08] Speaker C: There's a lot of. The Air Force seems to be a lot of Colorado, Ohio, Colorado, Ohio, back and forth and back and forth. I know a lot of people who've done that. So in the, I guess the origin or the inspiration for doing bookish flights came from this, this, let's say, constant moving. Have you did. Oh, let me ask you this. I don't know about physical therapy, so I'm, I'm just gonna ask. Do you have to be licensed in every state, like every other. Okay. [00:09:37] Speaker A: Yes, yes. So you hit the nail on the head. It was born out of this constant moving. And I decided I was sick of the hamster. Well, I do a specialty of physical therapy. I'm a pelvic floor physical therapist by trade. [00:09:52] Speaker C: Ah, okay. [00:09:52] Speaker A: And a lot of companies, it's up and coming field and so a lot of companies don't have programs like that. So essentially we move to a new place. I have to transfer my license to that state and then I'll get hired by a company that wants to build out that program. So I'll build out that program and I'll train someone, like, who's going to be my replacement because I'm. You don't have to disclose that you're a military spouse. But I'm just an honest person to a fault where I'm like, I mean, I'm just going to let you know I'm leaving in three years. So. But I will build you this program, I'll train someone and then I'll leave. And I just kind of got tired of that, you know, every time I'm starting over when we move, like, the beauty of my husband's job is his transfers. Right. Like, he's not going back to square one every time we move. And at that point now, you know, we've. We've added some kids. We have three kids now. And I'm like, I. That just seems like so much work to then get up and leave in two years or three years. And Covid had happened as well. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: And we were living overseas, so we kind of knew I wasn't gonna be able to work overseas. So it just was this perfect storm of, oh, we'll go back to work. You know, I'll go back to work when we return to the States from Sicily. And then Covid was happening. So then it was a whole nother year off of work because nothing was open, right? And, you know, and not to beleaguer the point, but then we moved three summers in a row, San Diego to Washington and back. And I was like, I'm not going to go to a clinic for one year. Because then again, I'm like pushing my three kids out to new daycares, new schools. And I was like, that's a lot to ask young children to change that every year. So I decided to stay at home. And then I had the itch, though, that I wanted to use my brain outside of being mom. So I was like, I think it's time that I make something creative. And my husband was on a seven month deployment at the time. This was 2020. You know, you're at home, your family can't get to you. You're kind of just like in your own bubble. And I was like, well, what could I do? So I just started dreaming, like, what could I do if I had time available? Which I think every mom goes through this, right? Of, like, when I get time back, right, we have this moment of like, what can I dream to do, right? And I thought, well, I really like talking to people. That's one thing I loved about being in the clinic, seeing patients, and I missed that part of it. And then the other piece, I started thinking about, well, what do people call me? About what I'm an injury triage line. Like, people will call me when they get injured. Like, what do I do? Do I need to go to the doctor? Should I. I say, do I put heat on it? You know, like the injury triage line that I am. And the other thing that people call me about is books. And because I've always been a lifelong reader, I'm always reading. I don't watch a ton of tv. And so reading is my mode of relaxation. So a lot of times people will call me and ask me for book recommendations. And so I thought, well, what if I start a podcast? It allows me to talk to people. And I thought, well, I could take this two ways, right? I could take this to physical therapy or I could take this to books. And I'm like, with physical therapy, I think I'm going to run out of ideas too quickly. And I was like, I want to have, like, where I could just keep going with this. And I'm not like, you know, scratching the bottom of the barrel to get something. And so I was like, I can still talk about my Women's health and pelvic floor and all that stuff in the world of books. And so hence Bookish Lights was born. So it took another, like, year, year and a half after that, you know, of planning and, like, making sure I had the time. Because if I start something, I really want to make sure I do a good job with it. And so I will not start something if I don't think I have the time or the bandwidth to do it. [00:13:14] Speaker C: Okay, What? Okay, so there are. I wouldn't say many. There's a lot of podcasts. Most of them are not books. That said, there are a number of book podcasts. What gave you the idea of flights? So let me say this. So I was talking to my son, who's 15. [00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:31] Speaker C: And thinks he knows everything, but maybe not so much. [00:13:33] Speaker A: And don't we all at that age? [00:13:36] Speaker C: So I was sitting down talking to him about. I was like, oh, I'm going to do this podcast called Bookish Flights. And he said, I don't understand the conceit. And I was like. He was like, why a fight? And I was like, oh, like a wine flight. And he's like, what's a wine flight? So I had to explain to him, I guess, the thing I think I've taken, like, I've been to vineyards on vacation with him, but I get who knows what. He wasn't paying attention. So I was explaining to him, like, a flight. I was like, so they have wine flights. And I was like, a friend of ours went to Ireland and they did she like the picture she sent us. She was doing a whiskey flight. And I said, I think even breweries now have them. But what made you choose that as a way, as opposed to talking about one book or, I don't know, motherhood in books or, you know, I don't know, allegory in books or whatever. Some kind of other kind of way to get into that. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I had decided. So it started out as I had a neighbor that lived down the street, and she read fantasy. And I was like, you know, I always say I don't like fantasy, but I was like, I never read that genre, so how can I say that I truly don't enjoy something when I just never even try it? And so I was like, what if we do this book flight? And I kept it to three books because my other thing was I didn't want to have, like, you know, we can get talking about books, and you can have 10 or 15 books that are mentioned in an episode. And I'm like, I Want this to be something that is digestible and people won't feel overwhelmed. Like, I don't want to turn the fire hose of recommendations onto them. And so that was where the flight came from. I was like, well, what if we stick with three? And in the very beginning it was like genre based. It was fantasy and sci fi. And then it kind of got to like foodie nonfiction novels. And then we went to historical fiction and, you know, we just kind of started bouncing around. But to keep it really simple, I kept it genre based at the beginning. And now I think episode 139 is coming out this week. It's obviously, obviously gotten much different than that at this point and a lot more, you know, niche, because I think being, I don't, I don't want to use the word basic, but the more broad we've already kind of covered. So people are getting very specific, which is so much fun to see how people pair their books together and why they chose them. And I think the books they choose, I think they can help tell the story about the person a little bit because I think these books that really impact you, they meant something to you in that moment and that's why they've stuck with you. You know, it's like they almost embedded their self themselves in their. In your soul, I think. [00:16:07] Speaker C: So this is interesting. So a friend of mine did a podcast. She stopped for a while because of personal issues, but it was called the Best Book Ever, Julie Strauss. And it was such an interesting idea because people have. Well, not everybody, but a number of readers have very strong feelings about a book in particular. Do you find that your guests have strong feelings about it or strong feelings about the theme they chose or. Yeah, the theme. I mean, I don't have strong feelings about fantasy. Like, I don't have strong feelings about three books in particular. I think about any given topic. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have to think about that. I would say it's more theme based at this point because like I said, it's more gotten away from the genres or, you know, I'm thinking of the episode that came out last week. She is a Romantasy writer and she was like, these were three books that turned me onto the romance novel, like the romance industry as a teenager. And she's like. And they just imprinted on my mind, which is why when I started writing fantasy, I wanted to include the Romanasy, you know, part of it. And so she chose these three books that just imprinted on her as a teenager. I don't know if that helps answer your question. [00:17:21] Speaker C: Are you surprised by people's choices? [00:17:23] Speaker A: You know, it's hard because I can't possibly read every book that comes in as a book flight. Right. I do try to read. If an author comes on the show, I will try to read their book and then that way I can speak to their books. But it is impossible for me to read. I wish I had all the time in the world, but it is impossible for me to read every book that comes in for the book flight. So I will say I'm not surprised, but that might also be because I just don't know all the books that are coming through in the form of the book flight. [00:17:51] Speaker C: Is there usually something in the flight that you have heard of or that you've heard otherwise heard of? [00:17:57] Speaker A: Usually, but there are some times, like, people will come and they are like obscure titles. And I'm like, wow, I've never even heard of these. But it does. It's great for me. I mean, my TBR has exploded exponentially because then it kind of opens up my world to what else is out there. And I will, after the fact, I always try to go read at least one book from a book flight that someone brought. So it's. I don't necessarily read it before the show, but I will. Like, it gets added to my tbr. And I absolutely love going back to people and saying, like, hey, I loved that book you recommended or giving my honest feedback, you know, like, thank you for that recommendation. And I try to in my mind, like, just remember, like, oh, so and so recommended me that book. So when I go to read it, I need to reach back out to her and say, like, that was a great recommendation. Thank you. And so I try to do that with the book flights and the guests that come on the show. [00:18:52] Speaker C: What made you choose three? Because I was thinking about the wine flight. Because I've been. Well, now, now they all seem to honestly have five or more. And I'm just like, I don't know how anybody, like, sips at these and doesn't drunk at the end of the day. But what made you choose three? [00:19:07] Speaker A: I don't know. Maybe there was a part of me in my, like, physical therapy recesses of my brain where we make what's called smart goals and they're specific, measurable and attainable is the big one in the middle. Like. And maybe because I had been a physical therapist for, you know, 13 years before I had started the podcast, I was so used to, like, trying to figure out how I can get someone to do something that I want them to do. And so maybe in my mind, three just seemed like a really attainable number for people to try. I also think it was a good number in my mind to really explore the fantasy genre. Like if in three books I determined, like, nope, none of them were for me, then maybe that wasn't my genre. But if you just read one and it's an off one and you're like, that didn't work for me. That doesn't mean, you know, I still wouldn't rule it out. [00:19:56] Speaker C: Yeah, okay, that's actually, that's really fair that that makes a lot of sense. Clearly we don't think alike. These things I. Oh, my God. These things just never cross my mind. I live in a different universe. What? So. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Well, you know your world, right? Like, you spend time in her and I spend time, you know, in my world in the bookish light. So it totally makes sense. [00:20:15] Speaker C: What? Okay, so has there been any book that has been on the podcast that you've read that you thought to yourself, not that I'm sorry I missed it, but this is an amazing thing and that I otherwise might. May not have come by? [00:20:33] Speaker A: Oh, that is a great question. Because I have had so many books that I have just loved. Well, let's say this. So I'm going to go with a recent read. [00:20:44] Speaker C: Okay. [00:20:45] Speaker A: Because my go to genre is historical fiction. Like, if I, like we had kind of talked about yesterday, you know, but I can get burnt out of it. But if I had to, and I'm like, I don't really know what to grab, I would grab a historical fiction. My comfort genre. It's my go to. I can learn while I'm reading it, but I still get a great story. And I had someone come on the podcast last year and she writes like these dual timeline historical romances. And that was a genre I had never read. So she came on, she brought three books on her book flight. I had not read any of the three. And I happened to be at the library and Edenbrook by Julianne Donaldson was on the shelf and I grabbed it. And then shortly after that, I fell sick with something my children had brought home. And I was in bed for like 24 hours and I devoured that book in a day. And it just added that extra element to the historical fiction where there was that romance component and it brought in the happily ever after. And I was listening to Katherine sent her recently, and she was talking about how you read thrillers very differently than you do romance, because in romance, you know, there's going to be a happily ever after. So you're reading with like this hopeful energy about it, where in thrillers you're like, okay, when's the next shoe going to drop and what's going to happen? And. And I was like, that is so true. And so I was then introduced to historical romance, which I have then dove down this historical romance. And now I wouldn't say devour because I don't have the time to devour books like I did with that one when I was sick in bed for 24 hours. But it's a new genre that was introduced to me. I know it's not new to everybody else, but it was new to me. And so I'm so thankful for that recommendation. [00:22:26] Speaker C: So that's fascinating because I don't. So let me ask you this then. What is. What are some of your favorite historical fiction books? And I know I didn't ask you beforehand, I just. It's a, it is a genre I occasionally read and I do enjoy it for the same reason that you enjoy it, because you're like, oh, I learned about like the North Africa campaign in World War II from historical fiction. I had not had a sense of Italy and North Africa because that's not what we. When I was in school, that's not what you talk about when you talk about World War II. And I was like, how is there this whole separate part of World War II that I never heard about and that was through historical fiction when I was in college and had a lot of time to read. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I also think we're not exposed to it through story. So I don't think we get invested. You know, you're not invested in history when you're learning it for school. You're just learning it to didactic memory to be able to regurgitate it on a test where I feel like when you read it in a story, at least for me, I mean, I guess I can't speak for you, but for me it's like, oh, I'm so invested in what's going to happen, happen to these people. And you can walk in their shoes and you can see, like, what would I have done if I was alive in 1943? Or whatever area you're reading, what would I have done if I was faced with a similar set of circumstances? And I love being able to do that when I read. But a few of my favorites, it's hands down my all time favorite one is the Nightingale by Kristin Hannah. I don't know if you've read that one. [00:23:52] Speaker C: I can see the COVID Yeah. So I'm trying to think, do I know the COVID or do I not? Oh, yes, sorry. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Yes, sorry. But it's a World War II novel. It's set in France. I don't. Do you want me to tell you a little bit about it? I guess I should ask that. [00:24:04] Speaker C: Yes. Okay. Yeah. [00:24:05] Speaker A: So it's set in World War II in France, and it's in Vichy occupied France. And it's a story of two sisters. And one sister kind of takes this revolutionist side where she's like kind of fighting in the background, and the other sister does not because she has a family, she has a child, but she is forced to house a Nazi officer in her house because it was Vichy occupied France. And so it's these two sisters in basically how they fought against the Nazis that were occupying their country in very different capacities. And gosh, I almost am going to tear up because it was one of the most. I will say it's a very emotional book, but Kristin Hannah writes in such a way that I feel like she will make you cry, but in a way that you feel like, protected, like you're not going to then go sob for a week. But you are so invested in these characters and what is happening to them that she can just draw that emotion out in you. And it was, it is the book that got me back into reading as an adult because like you said, we go through college, we go through grad school, we do all this other reading. And for me, I have to table any leisure reading in that period of my life because I would just want to leisure read and not study. [00:25:19] Speaker C: And I will say nothing because I didn't table it. So that that worked out how it sounds about how it sounds. [00:25:27] Speaker A: So. But it is the book that made me fall in love with reading. Like, when I was a child, like, I just was so taken away with that story. And then I just was a historical fiction fan ever since. So she has great novels. I would recommend any Kristin Hannah novels because she's covered a lot. The other one is Kate Quinn is the Diamond Eye. And exactly to your point, it's also set during World War II, but it's about a woman who Russian sniper during World War II. And it's a true story. And I had just never read a lot about the Russian theater of world World War II. And so that was an absolutely fascinating book. And it made me go dig down this rabbit hole and watch all these videos and Google, like, who this woman was because I'M like, this is such an amazing story. How have we never heard this? [00:26:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. I heard a story yesterday that I'm. That is a new rabbit hole that I may go down. It's about Hedy Lamar, who was an actress. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:28] Speaker C: But she basically invented. How can I say this? I don't know the. I don't even know how to say this. I want to say it's like WI Fi, Bluetooth and other wireless communication. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Wow. [00:26:38] Speaker C: And she had to work with this guy to get a patent, and the patent expired, which is how we are where we are. But I was like, oh, so this whole acting thing was like a side note in her life separate from her. She. She was an inventor. And I was like, okay, now, now I'd love to read a book about that. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Actually, I think I read about. I think there's two books about her and I can't think of the title. I've read. [00:27:00] Speaker C: I Was on the Car yesterday. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I've read one of them. I'll send it to you after when we get off the call because I can't think of the title right now. But I did enjoy that. And again, like you said, fascinating story about someone that has like, basically a dual life, Right? Yes. [00:27:17] Speaker C: And may have had a different life. Well, if many circumstances had been different. Not World War II. I mean, there's a little. 10,000 things have to have been different. So is there a period of a historical period that interests you? Because I know. Well, no, A lot of people I know are interested in very specific things. World War I, World War II. My child's interested in like the 15 and 1600s in Europe and not. I don't know what to say about that because that's not my thing. But he's like, between 1066 and 1400, I'm like, okay, that's a very specific. [00:27:46] Speaker A: I love it though. Very specific. [00:27:49] Speaker C: It's very specific. So I just. But there are some periods in history that interest me generally. But I wouldn't say there's anyone in particular that I'm. That I would go down. I'm fascinated by. But is there anyone for you that's more interesting? [00:28:06] Speaker A: Well, I will say back to my point is I do get burnt out of World War II era novels. They are fantastic and they keep coming out with new ones and new stories and they're all amazing. But I do have to kind of back to tabling it. I do have to kind of set those aside every once in a while and go read something else because they can be quite heavy, I think, reading history and historical fiction. So I will mix in like the romance novels and all of that, but I don't know that there's any genre or, like, era I would shy away from because I find it all fascinating to me and so much different than the way we learned history in school. So I appreciate it for that. [00:28:46] Speaker C: Okay, I'm going to ask you this weird thing because this is the one area I sort of think about. Have you read any, like, Canadian historical fiction about the expansion? Well, it's the time that there was expansionist era in the US which is like, let's say the 17, 18, late 18 to 1900s. And I had read like a short thing in Canada about that. About. I don't even remember. It was some kind of, like, I don't know if it was women brides or some kind of train. And I was like, oh, this seems interesting. One day when I have time, I'm gonna go in this particular hole. [00:29:14] Speaker A: It's interesting you say that because I just did an arc read for an author that had been on the show. Interestingly enough, she was the historical romance book Flight as well. But it was set in Canada and it was the fur traders of Canada. So it wasn't necessarily about the expansion, Although they were down in Minnesota in the novel and it was part of Canada at that point. But it was like the portage, you know, where they like, carry the canoes across land and then they get to the next body of water and they put the canoes in. And that's how they were, how this fur trade existed. And it was set in the, I want to say, like the 1870s, if I remember correctly. And that was fascinating to me. And just the life and how they would set up these camps. And yeah, it was. It was really impressive. And it was a woman, like, disguised as a man. She was running, she was fleeing someone, and so she was disguised as a man. And so it was like told through her story of going on this fur traders route that they would do. So it wasn't necessarily about the expansion. But it's so interesting you bring that up because the other part of this is because we move all the time. I use books to research and learn about the places we are living. So I will try to read like hyper local to where we live. Whether it's local authors that are writing in the area or it's to learn about the culture. When we lived in Hawaii, I mean, it's so rich in culture and speaking of invasions of islands, but to just Read about how the US really came in and, you know, took control of. They were independent. Right. Of their island. And. And so I read a ton when we lived in Hawaii about their history, and I find it gives such a unique flavor to where we live, where I, you know, I'm not. And you're not just a tourist when you live. You know, we are typically in places for three years. So you do get to really experience a place, I think. And I, of course, being a reader, will dig into even deeper through books. [00:31:10] Speaker C: Okay. I did read a book. Okay. You may remember something I hadn't thought about. I read one book. So my son. Let me say this. My son has these odd travel whims, and I try to fulfill them. So this is before COVID so I think it was 2019. He said, oh, I want to go see an active volcano. And. And I was like, okay, like, what's reasonably reachable from where we are in la? So we went to the big island of Hawaii. But before then, I read a single book, which I never now can remember because this is clearly, like, six years ago, about the kingdom of Hawaii and its annexation. And I was like, oh, Like, I don't know if I. I mean, I knew. I mean, we knew that the United States did not have Hawaii and did not have Alaska, and then they did or the same with Puerto Rico or Guam or whatever. So, I mean, I know that these things were acquired, as it were, but I don't think I thought much about the history of it. And I read that, and I was like, oh, this is a whole thing. But I guess the other question I have about Hawaii that I still have questions about was the population of Hawaii by people from other islands like Tahiti, and the fact that they had to come on very long boats on very long trips. And I. I remain. This is like, one of the things I still talk to my son about. I remain to this day more fascinated by how they got across, especially the Pacific Ocean, which is not a kind ocean, how they. They traveled so far without, like, modern conveniences, which interest me way more than things like Stonehenge, which I'm just like, people move some stones. We don't know how, but I got that. I've seen it. They're there, so it must have happened. But the boat. The boats in the Hawaiian Islands fascinate me. Have you read about that? I'm sorry. I just, like, that's one of the things I really wonder. I just can't imagine being like. When they talk about these queens, I'm like, so she's on a boat. Like, no. [00:33:06] Speaker A: I have had the same. I've, like, told my husband this multiple times. I'm like, can you imagine, like, leaving in a boat and not knowing if an island is out there? And it is so vast in the Pacific, you know, and you're like. And like you said, there's not modern conveniences, so. Or navigational tools, you know, just the stars in the sky. They say that's, you know, the shaka, you know, that hand. I don't know if this is totally true, so don't quote me here, but they say that the shock, if you line your pinky up with the horizon and then your thumb to the North Star, that was how they were able to navigate back to Hawaii. So that's why the shock is like a Hawaii thing. Now, again, that could just be a story I was told, so don't quote me 100%, but that's what I did work at the local hospital when I lived there. So I saw a lot of locals as patients and all of that. So that was. They would tell me a lot of stories. So nothing is a. You know, I haven't gone back and fact checked that. So. But there is a. There was two books I remember reading there, and I can picture the COVID and they were both by travel writers, and they basically went. One of them went and he tried to basically redo Captain Cook's Journey across the Pacific, which also happened. You know, he ended up dying in Hawaii, but it was also in like the. I think Tahiti. Like, he was way out in the Pacific, and then he worked his way back and he tried to navigate and do that journey again. Now, again, title is skipping me as we speak, but I can send you those, you know, for the show notes or whatever. But there's. And there was another one where it was. Oh, goodness. He went around the Pacific islands and just kind of to see the unique cultures and heritages that lived on these islands and the differences between the two. So it's not necessarily the journey or the historical piece of it, but they're both travel writers and you know how they tend to be quite humorous, the travel writers. So there's definitely some comedy in it, too. So I remember them being a good romp. [00:35:01] Speaker C: It's one of those things I just. Every. Every time I think of it, I think. Can't put. Wrap my head around it. Let me go back to what I'm doing, because it just. [00:35:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I do have another fascinating historical fiction wreck that I read when we lived in Hawaii, and it's called Molokai. And if you're not familiar with the island of Molokai, this is a true story. So when people back in the day, so I believe this was in the 30s and 40s when they were diagnosed with what is Hansen's disease, it's also known as leprosy, they were given a notice. So if there was a spot noted on them at the doctor, they were given a notice and a letter saying that they had to be on the boat by 5pm that day, like literally leave their entire lives. And they were taken to the island of Molokai, which happens to be one of the islands in the chain of Hawaiian islands. And they were dropped 500ft from shore. And most of them were super sick with leprosy and they had no supplies and nothing. And so there's this village on there called Calipal Pow. And they. It's still a leper colony to this day because after they decided, okay, well, you can. They had treatments for leprosy. And after they were like, well, you can, you can leave now. You could go back to your, you know, let's say you were living in Honolulu. You could go back to Honolulu if you'd like. A lot of them were children. Like, their parents had been sent there. And so they were born on the island of Molokai, and they literally knew nothing outside of this colony that they were forced to stand. And if you look at pictures, it is crazy because it. They're like this little patch of beach and then there's these huge sea cliffs that you can't climb up and over. And so there's a book called Molokai. It's by Alan Brennert. I will say it's. It's kind of like a basic novel. I mean, it's not the most in depth writing you're ever going to get, but it tells the story of Molokai. And it is when I tell people this, they're like, what? This actually happened? And my husband and I, it's a national park now. Like, you can go. It's. Or it's national park protected land. So you can go down there. And we happen to have a friend of a friend, so we stayed overnight down there and we got to tour it and see the church and all the adaptive equipment. Because when you lose, when you have leprosy, you can lose digits. Like you can lose your fingers, you can lose your toes. And so they had to be, you know, things to turn on, light switches, ways to feed themselves. And this Was all that these people had to do. They weren't given any support, and they were just shipped off to the. You know, by the neck, you know, within 12 hours of noticing a spot of leprosy, and they were shipped to this island. And so it's a. Definitely a dark part of our history, But I think it's important to read about and to know about. [00:37:37] Speaker C: Okay, this is fascinating. I. And I have a whole afternoon. I have other things to do. Okay, so. Other things to do. Okay. [00:37:45] Speaker A: So books, draw. [00:37:48] Speaker C: Oh. But I really have things to do. Okay, what this is gonna be. I'm going back. But what made you choose physical therapy? Because it's something I engage in regularly now that I'm older. And I just. I've actually never asked a physical. No, I asked one physical therapist why she did it, and she used to work out, like, at the same gym I did, and she was like. She saw injuries and then became interested in that. But what possessed you to choose that? [00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah, so I always loved anatomy and physiology. It was one of my favorite subjects I took in high school. But I don't like blood, and I don't like needles. Like, I literally cannot watch a needle penetrate the skin. And so I was like, what? It made me think, well, I want to do something in the medical field, not a phlebotomist. And I was like, well, what can I do that doesn't require me doing Putting needles, putting needles in someone, or seeing the sight of blood? And my uncle, or my uncle, my grandfather, was like, the bionic man. Like, he had had both hip replaced, one redone, both knees replaced. And so he had had a ton of physical therapy when I was growing up. And so I remember sitting with him, you know, because back in the day, you had to sit for six weeks, you know, sit for six weeks when you had a hip replacement, which is not how it is today, but we would play lots of cards. He taught me all these card games, But I remember just sitting with him as a child while he's resting and recouping, and he's like, why don't you try physical therapy? Because he had obviously had his fair share in his life. And so I. Thankfully, I had a friend that his dad was a chiropractor, but he hired physical therapists in his clinic to teach exercises on the backside of it. And so I started interning in the summers at his chiropractic. Chiropractic clinic underneath the physical therapist. And I was like, yeah, I think I want to do this. So obviously you do. Four years of undergrad before you can apply to PT school. So it gave me four summers to work at it. And, you know, similar to our conversation yesterday, it was like everybody was telling me, you need to go straight to grad school or you're never going to go back. And I was like, I don't know. I just did four years. I have my bachelor's. I kind of want to take a break and, like, save up some money and make sure this is what I really want to do. And so I applied to Northwestern because I'm from Chicago, so I applied to Northwestern. I'm like, if I get into the best PT school, then I'll go. And I didn't. I got waitlisted. So I got my year off, and I worked in a PT clinic for that year just to kind of really make sure it was what I wanted, and then applied to school the next year and got in. But, yeah, it was really. That came down to no blood and no needles and something in the medical field. [00:40:17] Speaker C: So this is so interesting because I. Okay. The number of people I know who are professionals who did not know what the job entailed before they did it is very, very high. It's like 99%. So unless their parents did it. And even in that case, you don't always know. I mean. I mean, if your parents. A doctor, it's not like you because of the. Because of the confidentiality, something like that. You don't always, you know, you can't just hop in. So I guess the question is, you really made sure, like, you're the first person I've ever heard who's like, let me try this out, and let me try this out some more. What gave you the impetus to make that kind of decision? Because most people I know who had internships, they were never related to what ultimately they did. And what I have found, having gone to law school and having friends who've gone to medical school, is if they had known what the job was, they probably would not have gone to school. [00:41:14] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it's interesting to think about because I don't think I had, like, foreshadowed. Like, I really just want to make sure this is what I want to do, because I had no backup plan. Like, I didn't know what else I would do if I wasn't a physical therapist. So thankfully for me, I ended up loving it. And it is a really fun profession. It's really fun to work in PT clinics. Like, I've had many friends come to me, you know, over the years. And say, like, they'll go to PT somewhere else. You know, we don't live local together. And they're like, I can see why you chose this profession. It's so fun. Even when I go as the patient, like, they're like, it's so fun in there. So it ended up being an environment that was really good for me. But I will say, I like other medical professions. The burnout rate is really high. And you don't. I don't think you would see that, you know, in doing, like, summer internships or being just an aide in a clinic for the year that I did. But, yeah, I don't. I'm not sure what made me do it outside of. I just wanted a break. Like, I was like. I just did four years where I worked my tail off, you know, to get my bachelor's and make sure I had the grades to get into PT school. So I was like, I just wanted a year. It wasn't, you know, but again, I had no backup plan, so if it failed, I don't know where I would have ended up. [00:42:25] Speaker C: So what do you think causes burnout? Because. So. Well, okay, so in the last few years, let me say this, about 20 years ago, I injured myself. And they're like, you should get physical therapy. And I thought, nah, and I skipped it. I regret this, but we can't go back. [00:42:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:38] Speaker C: So now I'm fairly consistent. Well, age will. Age will humble you in so many ways. So now I'm fairly. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Got to take care of ourselves ahead of time. [00:42:49] Speaker C: So if I had known then what I know now, I would have. I would have not run like this. I would have not run downhill. I mean, there's so many things I did that just. What was I thinking? So what do you think attributes to the burnout? Is it because it's so physical? Yourself? Yeah. [00:43:06] Speaker A: No. I mean, my husband and I used to say that because when we first graduated, he's a physical therapist, too. And we'd be like, where are all the old physical therapists? And there are definitely manual, you know, intensive physical therapy jobs. You know, think about maybe spinal cord injuries or someone that's had a stroke where you're really lifting them or transferring them in and out of the bed or in and out of chairs. But, you know, like, working in an outpatient clinic, like I did, it wasn't hugely, you know, physically intensive, but I would say more often than not, it's documentation. You know, paperwork just kills it. It's like, it's so fun seeing patients, but then you Spend two hours doing paperwork. At the end of the day, that's no fun for anybody. [00:43:47] Speaker C: Okay. [00:43:48] Speaker A: And the other thing is insurance. And we all know that the insurance companies in America, I mean, this is just such a botched system. But even from the medical providers, and that's where a lot of the documentation comes in. It's like you can't just write a daily note. You have to have, you know, the claims, you have to have the justification. You have to be. And they keep coming out with new things that you have to have to justify your services. And all insurances are different. So then you're like, what? You know, you have literally drawers. I remember file folders. I'm sure now I haven't been in the clinic in a while. I'm sure now this is maybe all online, but you would have files of like, okay, well, UnitedHealthcare needs this one, or TRICARE needs that, or you know, different forms that each one needed and it's just death by documentation. And then insurance reimbursements is really low. So a lot of clinics, I think of them as like almost PT farms. They expect you to see like two to three patients an hour, which. Oh, you know, doing my specialty, I can't go hand off one of my pelvic floor patients. So it's a really good specialty to be in. But when you're seeing, you know, 15, 20 patients a day, that's tough. And then you have to do all the documentation on that. It's. It's a lot. [00:45:00] Speaker C: Okay, I see now when you say this, I'm trying to think. So I've been to like four different clinics basically because, well, whatever, I'm. I try a lot of different things. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Sure. [00:45:11] Speaker C: Let me say this. The in hospital clinics are better, but they. Oh, okay. Right after Covid, they were not hard to get into. And then they started booking up like they used to, and it's a little harder to maintain that. So those are better. And they, they seem to care less about that because they have a, a whole hospital, you know, umbrella, like supporting them. It's not an independent clinic. But now that you say this, I'm trying to think. I don't know if I've ever seen a physical therapist over 40. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And yeah, a lot of them, I think, go into teaching. You know, now, like looking at it, a lot of them go into teaching or they get, you know, they get higher up so they have more, maybe more an administrative job. So they're just not on the PT floor seeing patients as much or they're you know, doing continuing ed or they're teaching at universities. But yeah, it's really. You don't see many older physical therapists. [00:46:00] Speaker C: Wow. Okay. You know, you, when you say this, I'm literally. Because I, I have an appointment like next week. Like I'm literally psyching through my mind and everybody. Okay, I'm older, so to me everybody looks like they're like 30 and under. And I'm like, why are they all so young? Like, you know, in my head I. Part of me thought because maybe it's physical and I have not gone to. Okay. There are a lot of older patients who seem to me more assistance, like they need help getting in and off the bender, in and off the little step or whatever, whatever the stuff is. So to me I thought, oh, maybe it's physical because they have to like help these like more frail people do that. But I hear you with the insurance. That's the bane of. That's one of the things that many of my friends who are doctors hate and it has made them go to part time or do different things to try to avoid that. You know, what's the code? [00:46:46] Speaker A: I think it's changing our entire healthcare system because then it's like the small independent PT clinic cannot be. And then they're bought up by these hospital systems. Right. And they become these big conglomerates. Yes. On top of it. Which is like a whole nother beast in itself. [00:47:02] Speaker C: Do you think you would go back to physical therapy? [00:47:07] Speaker A: I know it's so we've had this talk many of times because he's like, are you gonna go back to the clinic? And my oldest is. He's only. I mean, sorry. My youngest is. He's only four still. So he's not quite school age. So I'm on this cusp of like, well, what would we do with him if he. So at this point, you know, we're kind of still on the status quo, but it's not going to be too far out where he is school age. So. [00:47:29] Speaker C: Right. Ye. [00:47:30] Speaker A: I would only go back, at least at this point in my life, part time because I do. Like the other part of this is I realize the beauty of being home with my kids and I know that this is time that I will never get back with them. And when I'm 80, I'm not going to think back. Like, I'm so glad I went to the clinic to see Ms. Smith for her back pain. You know, I'm going to be like, I am so glad I have this time with my kids. And so I would maybe go back part time, you know, but again, until we're. Until we stop moving, I don't know that I would pursue that super intensely. Just because, again, I know, you know, it's like, so temporary. We know we're leaving again in three years. And so I'm like, I don't know. Like, it's just a lot up in the air. It's. And I see, like, the exodus of physical therapists leaving. So it's like, is that really what I want to go back into? [00:48:21] Speaker C: So what is it that you want your listeners to get from your podcast? [00:48:29] Speaker A: Yeah, so I feel like. I mean, and probably similar, similarly for you is we start the podcast and we think it's going to be one thing, and then it morphs into so much more. And things that stand out to me that I try to impart on my show or with my guests is I think books are fantastic conversational currency. And I say this because we move a lot. And so I'm starting over in community often, and I have used books and book clubs to make community every time we move. And I think it's so important. And I think something we have struggled with since COVID and maybe it is getting a little bit better, but is loneliness in people. And I think books are a fantastic way to bring you together, whether that's just in a simple conversation. You know, it's a great way to be like, oh, you know, have you read this book? Or are you a reader? Reader, you know, and then me and you, right, we can sit there and be like, what? You know, we jump off the deep end. I'm like, yes, I love this book or whatever. Yeah. But it also. Book clubs are a great way if you're more of an introverted type person. Like, you can go and you can just have read the book. You can show up. You don't necessarily need to jump into a conversation because maybe these are new people to you, and you can just observe and you can maybe drop a line or two about what you thought about the book, but you can just be within a community of people and you have the shared experience of reading that book together. So for me, it has been, you know, talking about this loneliness and how books can bring us together. And the other part of that is like, the loneliness of motherhood. And on those days when you're home and you're with a baby and you. You can't leave the house because they're napping or you finally got them to bed and you don't want to do anything. And it's. You can also escape into the world of books, and you can. You know, you can relate to the characters. You can have these, like, conversations with yourself of, like, if I was this character, what would I do with this set of circumstances? And so I think it allows you to transport from your current set of circumstances. And whether that's loneliness or whatever you're feeling at that moment, you can transport into this other world, and you can just be happy and be in that world for the temporary time. And so I feel like those are kind of my underlying themes that kind of come out in the show just because it's what books have given me in my life. [00:50:52] Speaker C: How you anticipated it, or is it. Is it the way you thought it would be or not? And I'm assuming you had made some assumptions about it. I don't. Not everybody does. [00:51:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think the hardest part for us is being a military family, is we have never lived near our family. Right. So the people that you would call in, like, your crisis moment, or when you're like. Like, feeling your worst after you just have a baby or whatever, you're trying to figure out nursing, you can't figure it out, and the hormones are all over the place, you know, you're just a mess. My community was not there, you know, or my established community. And depending on where we were in the move cycle, we might have been the newbies in the neighborhood. So I don't know that I had these, like, grandiose visions, though, of what I thought motherhood would be. So the beauty of that is I didn't have these expectations. But the other part of it is, I guess I never thought I would leave Chicago. And so my husband joined the military. And, you know, I don't know if it's okay to say this, but God had very different plans for my life when my husband joined the Navy. And now we move around the world, essentially. And so it's never where I thought I would see my life. So I don't know that it was different. It just has been hard. Harder. At least I. At least, I think, because I've never lived near my family, with my kids, to know if it would actually be easier. [00:52:14] Speaker C: That's true. That's true. I know. Because you're making an assumption that may not bear out. I mean, who knows? I mean, it's hard to say. Because it's really hard to say. [00:52:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:22] Speaker C: What. What do you think causes the loneliness of motherhood? [00:52:31] Speaker A: So I think, again, this could just be a function of Moving. So we're the new people. And I think back that I think I experienced this more when my kids were young, you know, when they were newborns and you have toddlers and the days seem so long. And you know, my husband did a seven month deployment in there. So it's like my person was gone and, and it was 2020, so we were told to stay in a bubble. And that was a really lonely year of, you know, neighbors weren't out. We had just. We literally moved in June of 2020 to San Diego from Sicily. So we didn't know. We only knew. We knew one family that had moved from Sicily a few months prior. And but you know, everybody's told not to make new friends, you know, stay in your bubble. And so meeting new people at that point. And I had a 4, 2 and a 10 week old at the time. And then my husband left three months later. So maybe again, it's just circumstantially, but that was a really lonely year for me and books and dreaming about bookish flights. Actually that's when it started. Was really what I feel like kind of gave me the mental stamina through the day. And my family couldn't fly out because it was 2020. So it's like my family couldn't even fly to be with me because I can't. [00:53:46] Speaker C: I have a single child. I am a single child. My parents are single. So you know, like I just. So this is really well beyond me. [00:53:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:54] Speaker C: How did you do it? Because I don't. So okay. During. In 2020, my son was. Well, I guess he would have been 10. I realized that in my head eight. But obviously that's not. I can do math. So he was 10 and for the most part a true delight because you know, he can like obviously go to the bathroom and take a shower, like for the most part, I mean, and. [00:54:17] Speaker A: Have conversations with you. [00:54:19] Speaker C: So it was, it was once I got over the fact that I wasn't leaving my house, like that took a minute because in my head it was gonna be a couple of weeks. And then, you know, other than that, it was a really delightful time because I got to spend more time with him than I had had in years because he was in school during the day. And I mean we, it was, we had fun. We had a really good time. We did some baking, watch like the bridge. We watched tv. Like we just had a really good time. Probably way too much screen time because I had had a screen time limits before that and that blew them out of the water and I've not been able to harness. Well, no, I've never been able to harness it back. Like I was like, oh well, as soon as this is over, we'll be back to a half an hour. And that didn't really. Well, you know that. Okay, that's gone. So. And I have some regrets about it, but I, you know, after a few hours, after all his schoolwork is done and school was done and it's like 2:32 and we're looking at each other, we're like, okay, well we have like six hours to fill. So there was more screen time than I would have liked, but I found it delightful. How did you manage it? Because the children, the age you're talking about, one is obviously preverbal and then the other ages are of varying levels of emotional control and ability to express themselves. [00:55:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Difficult stages. You know, I think that was where again back to reading is. I did a ton of audiobooks so I would be sitting in, you know, the rocking chair and I would have my headset in and I would just. I can infinite. I can sit and be so much more patient with a. Am I. Of course my 10 week old had had colic at the time as well. This. I could sit there and rock you for infinitely longer than I would have been able to tolerate with an audiobook going on in my head because I was kind of escaped, you know, I'm holding you, I'm doing the things I need to do because it's on my headset so I, my hands are free and I could be a mom and do everything you needed and you're not talking to me at 10 weeks old so I can kind of go off in LA with my audiobook but still show up for you as my 10 week old and how you need me. And so I think maybe that's the other part of it is like that mental escape that I feel like you, you can't always get like in that moment right of that year with a 4, 4 year old, 2 year old and 10 week old, you know, I'm home every night when they go to bed at 7. There's no one else in the house to watch my kids when I leave. So tons of audiobooks and reading and escapism in that form I think really got me through. [00:56:54] Speaker C: Wow. I just. Okay, hats off to you because I don't know that, that I had, I mean I've had a child obviously all those ages, but before COVID and that was hard enough because sometimes there's no adults to talk to you know what I mean? There's no adults to talk to. [00:57:12] Speaker A: No. For sure. And I think that's maybe what the loneliness I'm referring to is. Like the lack of adult conversation. [00:57:17] Speaker C: Just anybody who has a thought that's not about them. And I'm not saying like they're completely self centered and it's completely expected and it's completely development. Mentally normal. But you know, there's only so many conversations I can have about. My son has a thing about butter not looking melted when it's on toast. And like just very specific, like two, three, four year old things that you know that every day it's like we'd have the same conversations about the same. His feelings about this food or that food or this shirt or whatever. And all you crave or all I craved was like, can I leave this house and go talk to somebody about. Not about children and then talk to somebody who has like a thought in their head that does not involve how they're, how the tag in their shirt. [00:58:00] Speaker A: Makes them feel or even someone asking you like, how are you doing? You know, like someone to like respond back. And like, you know, it's not that they don't care, it's just they don't have that mental capacity. Like, well, how are you doing? [00:58:13] Speaker C: No. I remember the first time my son came home from school. I don't know how old he was, 10, 11, 12. And he goes, how was your day? And I looked at him and I was like, oh my gosh. [00:58:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:21] Speaker C: Like you realize that I have a whole life separate from you. Like I. It was the most amazing conversation. I was like, huh? And it was, I think the first time I realized he realized that like I wasn't sitting. I caught in suspended animation. Yeah. Waiting for him to come home. And then I reanimate the minute he walks in the door. [00:58:36] Speaker A: We just sit and wait for you all day. [00:58:38] Speaker C: You just sit all day and then you're done. So I shouldn't laugh because he'll be home soon. So. Okay, so I have like one last question or one. A couple last questions. [00:58:50] Speaker A: I have one more thing to follow up. If you're just really quick, I will say, yeah. Like you're like, I don't know how you do it. I think we all, you know, we can just know there's times in our life when you just have to put your head down and get through because you know, no other option. Like the only way is to just put your foot forward every single day and just show up. And it's hard and hit the reset button. And I think we all can look back at moments in our life and be like, wow, how did I do that? You know? And so I think everybody has the capacity to the. To do that, and I think that we all do. It's just. It's your own hard. [00:59:24] Speaker C: Mm. Yeah, that's. That's true. It just. And let me say this. I don't. Sometimes I have this conversation with people. People are like, oh, I envy their life, or I envy what they have or whatever. And I always look at it. I think I have no idea what they had to go through to get there. And I'm not that interested in finding out. You know what I mean? It's like, if I don't know what they had to do to get there, and I'm not necessarily willing to take their particular path. Path to get there, but. So for that reason, I don't. I don't have that empty. But I do often wonder how people get through things that, for me, seem like they would be insurmountable. And I, like, I do know in my heart, like, if I were home with two or three kids, like, I would just have. I would have done the same thing. I would have gotten up and I would have just. [01:00:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:10] Speaker C: Moved through it. Would I have had fewer showers? Maybe. Would I have eaten worse? Maybe. Like, you know, there's, like. There's a lot of things that may have fallen by the wayside, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have done it. [01:00:19] Speaker B: It. [01:00:20] Speaker C: It just looks hard. And children. I only have one, so I have the temperament of one person. I had to learn. And learning. Having different humans with different personalities and. [01:00:32] Speaker A: Different needs, I feel like that's where I'm at today. Right. Is navigating each personality and figuring that out. Because I feel like I'm still learning at this point. [01:00:44] Speaker C: Yes, yes. And that. That's what I love about children, is they come with a fully formed personality. [01:00:49] Speaker A: But they can't wait for it to expose itself. [01:00:52] Speaker C: And it's like. Yes, it's like a. [01:00:55] Speaker B: It's a. [01:00:55] Speaker C: It's like a. Like, I. I call it, like, oh, look, discovery, But. And you know that you will discover it, but it's. It's slow going sometimes. What. So has there been a. I think a quote or something that's influenced you or changed the way. [01:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I will say I use it at the end of every show. And now I've kind of, like, summarized it as book serendipity. But I think that every book comes into our life when we most need them. And you know, there's certain times like maybe you've heard about a book and maybe you've heard about it two to three times before you actually pick it up. But I think at that point when you're picking it up, like that's the point in your life when you needed it. And there's so many times that I read a book and I'm like, like that was just the message that I needed to hear. [01:01:40] Speaker C: Last question I get us, I guess I'm gonna ask is, what are you reading right now? [01:01:43] Speaker A: So I always have multiple books going on at once. But the. The audiobook that I'm currently listening to is Cold Hearted Rake by. I think it's Lisa Clay Pass. I'm like blanking on her first name, but Clay Pass is her last name and it. It's Lisa. Thank you. Lisa Clay Pass. And I had never read her, but it was actually mentioned on the book flight from the episode that came week. So here I am holding true to my word. I was able to get it on, you know, hold through my Libby app. And so I'm reading that and I. It's another historical romance and she is a prolific writer and I've never read any of her work. So I'm hoping that it'll, you know, just open me up to another author that I can dig into a backlist of. [01:02:27] Speaker C: She is very prolific. She has written. Okay, I'm dating myself. She's added contemporary to some, to, well, whatever her sort of work. I want to say recently, but that means 15 years ago and that has been interesting. And I think some of her books also may have paranormal elements later, which I think is interesting. But the hardcore historical like that. She's a. A very prolific space. [01:03:01] Speaker A: That's speaking of paranormal romances. That's another genre I haven't really dug into you yet. Maybe one day. [01:03:08] Speaker C: I, I know and love many paranormal writers. It is not necessarily my favorite because I have to. I have to suspend disbelief on more than one like, you know, plane of thought. And then you're just like, okay, so I'm going to suspend disbelief about whether the meet cute or whatever the thing is about the book itself. And then you know, and also, you know it's going to be happen ever after. But you can't read it that way because then the tension doesn't work. So there's that and then there's also then learning. And this is why I don't write this. You have to figure out the world that they're building. Figure out the rules of that world and then apply them to the book. So there's a. There are quite a few, like time travel romances where people meet from different era. And the whole issue is how they can be together because they don't live in the same, you know, timeline. Right? And then there's like, yeah. [01:04:02] Speaker A: Era shifters. [01:04:04] Speaker C: Like that's like tutor. [01:04:07] Speaker A: I know. That's like the whole other. Right. And I'm like, is this outside of my range of what I would enjoy? I don't know. But again, I can't because I haven't tried it. Right. [01:04:15] Speaker C: So very well received shifter books. And it's a whole. I don't even know what to say. It's just a whole thing. It's just each, each, each like sub genre of romance is very specific. And if you love it, you love it. If you love it, there are quite a few of them. You know what I mean? So it's not. If you love it, there's 50 more. So you don't have to be like, I love this. [01:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah. The beauty is, is there's a book out there for everyone, right? Like there is a sub genre just waiting for you to find. [01:04:42] Speaker C: That's the biggest lesson I think I learned from a librarian when I was 6 or 7. And I was like, how? I don't know what I asked her. I. You know, when you're a kid they tell you to ask librarians for recommendations. Of course I like prevailed upon this librarian in Brooklyn who was probably like, okay. And I was like, how? And she was like, you just to take. Pick a lot of books. So I don't know. Limit was seven or ten at the time. She was like, take all these books home, start them and if you like it, then there are more like that. [01:05:10] Speaker A: And I was like, I'm laughing because we have like, we've had like 30 books checked out. Like me and the kids. And I'm like, when are we going to hit the limit? Like, what is the limit? You know, we'll go and we'll like turn in 32 books and then like, wow, okay, we had a lot. [01:05:27] Speaker C: No, I know. I. Yeah, the only. Let me say this. The greatest thing I love about now, at least with Los Angeles, there's an app for this. Well, there's Libby, but there's also an app for the Los Angeles Public Library. And now at least there is a list of books that I have. So if things get missing in the house, at least I know what's missing and not. It's Not a mystery of. They're like, you're missing a book. And this is when I was younger, and they would eventually send you a postcard with what the book was that was missing. But there was a little gap of time where it wasn't quite clear what had come and gone. But now it's like, you have not returned X. And I was like, I'm gonna go look for that, and they'll bring it to you promptly. [01:06:08] Speaker A: Well, to tie this all back to the moving and military life when we lived in Norfolk, I only had my oldest at the time, and I want. I want my kids to be readers. So we were, you know, avid users of the public library, and we were getting ready to move, and all our stuff had shipped off to Sicily, Italy. And they're like, oh, you still have a book out. And I was like, because we have no furniture or anything in our house right now. Like, you get, like, temporary loaner furniture, you know? And I was like, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna go ahead and pay for that one, because I am pretty sure it is in a box over the ocean right now. And sure enough, we get to Sicily, and now I laugh every time because it was a little island. And I. We still have it on our shelves, and it looks just like a library book when I go to take things back. And I'm like, nope, that's the one I bought from the Norfolk Public Library because it got shipped with all our stuff, so. [01:07:05] Speaker C: Oh, my. [01:07:06] Speaker A: We've only done it once, though, in 15 years. So I'm gonna take credit that. That was, you know, or give myself a pat on the back for that. [01:07:12] Speaker C: You deserve a huge congratulations, because the number of books I've paid for is much higher than that. [01:07:16] Speaker A: Well, we have now lost our second book. Book right now that I. This is only the second time it's happened to me. I'm like. And I'm still digging. I haven't. They haven't asked me for payment yet, but I'm like, I do not know where this book is. I cannot find it. So I'll keep you posted where I end up finding it if I do. If not, I'm gonna have to go in and pay. [01:07:34] Speaker C: I'm sorry. I. I love libraries. I think they're the best. They have the best mission. They provide the best service, and I'm all for them. So, Cara, I want to thank you. You, so, so much for taking the time to speak with me today, Taking the time away from the. The young children and talking to me about books. And podcasts. It's been the best. [01:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me on the show today. And can I say, like, thank you so much for giving me an hour of an adult conversation. So absolutely. I appreciate it. [01:08:10] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you so much. [01:08:12] Speaker A: You're welcome. [01:08:16] Speaker D: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in Nicole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. My next book, His Last Mistress is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. EagleThriller author. You can find me on TikTok at Social Thriller Author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at A Time to Thrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations. [01:17:28] Speaker C: Okay, so this is my last question, I think. Well, I asked this of many people taking into like account, like all the books you've written, do you think that there are consistent themes across the book expression that you see now? [01:17:44] Speaker E: Always writing the same book over and over again. And I do think my books, at least when I'm writing them, I feel like they're dramatically different. But I do think there are certain themes we all come back to and certain like scars that we're sort of always writing about. So all of my books feel like a coming of age and I think that's why the young adult felt so natural. So yeah, they're like in some ways my characters have to grow up. So I think that's something that's that you could see across all my books. So I do think there's something to a writer writing the same book over and over. Not of course the literal same book. Like, like I was saying to my therapist, like am I only going to write books about people with dead moms now? Because every I start is like about grief now. And she's like, maybe, but like not the rest of your life but for now maybe because the Thing I picked up was, like, supposed to be this, like, funny rom com, and all of a sudden I'm writing about grief. I'm like, where'd that come from? So she's like, yeah, that might be. So I do think people do sort of tackle the same thing over and over again. Oh, God, no, no, no. [01:18:56] Speaker C: Do you ever go back and you. [01:18:57] Speaker E: Couldn'T pay me enough money, the books you've written? Well, actually, you could pay me enough because if they asked me to do a movie adaptation, I would go back and read. [01:19:06] Speaker C: This is so interesting. [01:19:07] Speaker E: No, I, I, I have no desire to do that. I just think I would cringe and die and try to buy back the rights so no one can ever read them again. [01:19:20] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. I only asked because I was somewhere and I picked up a book I had written in 2014, and I read, like, the, I don't know, the first, like, let me say 14 pages. Like, I didn't get that far. But I thought to myself, it felt very foreign to me. Like, it was. And I thought, well, I know I wrote it like, I'm, you know. But I was like, this is a little. This is a little weird. Like, because it didn't, didn't feel in my head, it would have felt like, oh, I remember exactly, you know, writing this. And it. There was some distance that I did not anticipate. [01:20:01] Speaker E: Oh, God. Sounds dangerous. [01:20:04] Speaker C: Just a little fun exercise or should you, should you choose to, like, pull a book off the shelf? Well, no, I actually, it's because a friend suggested that I buy. Not buy, display. Like, take out every book I've ever written and put them on the mantel. Because sometimes when I'm sitting writing, it feels like I'm just starting from scratch. And I've never done anything in my life. And so when she said that, I was like, oh, that's a good idea. And then I pulled one down off the mantle, and I was like, oh, my gosh. And I put it right back. [01:20:31] Speaker E: Oh, wow. [01:20:32] Speaker C: It was a little. It was a little disconcerting. That's all I'm gonna say. So I'm gonna. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. And I'm gonna leave you in rainy, snowy New York while I sit out here and look at the clouds in rainy Los Angeles. I swear, it's just. There you go so rarely. I love it, but I got to wear rain boots, so I'm excited. I love. But I want to thank you for taking the time, and I wish you so much luck going forward with like branching out into new things because it's always, it's super exciting to to try something new, I think, and see where it goes. So thank you, thank you so much. And I, I, I can't wait to see what comes. [01:21:34] Speaker D: This has been a time to thrill. We've me your host, author Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first for four books in the Cole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. My next book, His Last Mistress is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. Eagle Thriller author, you can find me on TikTok@SocialThriller. Author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at itimetothrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great convers.