Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin.
It is May, but the big news is that his last mistress is out. By the time you hear this, it will have been out for maybe eight or nine days. I'd have to do the math on that, but it has gotten some great reviews. If you go on Amazon or you'll see the list of reviews under Editorial Reviews. So far this book, more than any other I've written, has been universally liked. A lot of readers have love hate relationships with my books. But this one has gone over a treat. I am so excited to share it with you. It's been a long time coming. It was delayed a little bit. But finally, finally, finally you get Lulu's story. So Lulu first appeared. Well, okay, so the books are out of order. But in the Casey Cora prequel, Disgraced, you get the opportunity to meet Lulu. So Lulu and Casey became fast friends in law school and best friends thereafter. And they share a lot of their lives. But I think one of the things that's sort of interesting about this that Casey realizes maybe part of the way through this that maybe their relationship is one sided because she certain Lulu certainly knows a lot about her life and Casey maybe is the center of her own universe, the star of her own show and she has not paid as much attention to Lulu's life. Now I'm gonna say I think I go back and forth on this. Part of me thinks Casey could have been more involved and part of me thinks maybe Lulu was reserved on purpose.
I'm sure that at least I have had and have like a friends who are very like actively interested in my life. But when I ask about their lives, they're a little more reserved and honestly if they have boundaries around that, that's fine. But I would hate to think that they're going through something and didn't reach out for help. And that's sort of one of the issues here with Lulu. I for her, I wish that she had been more connected to people in her life. She's got a large family, she's well liked. And I think that it would have behooved her to have had a greater circle of support. That said, perhaps the reason she doesn't have a greater circle of support is because of the relationship she's in. It's the two sides of a bad coin.
She is isolated, but then maybe she gets more isolated. I don't know. You'll have to read and let me know what you think. One of the things that I really like about this story is. It's one of the few that I've written that has like a big plot twist. I think I did it once. Well, in an earlier book.
I don't want to give it away. But in Without Consent, we talk a little bit about that. And then the murders began. There's a plot twist that sort of develops over an arc of three books, but this one has a twist. And almost everybody I've universally spoken with, especially in a lot of the podcast interviews, the person who read it didn't see the end coming. And that's something that's super gratifying as an author to be able to keep people guessing until the last page.
So if you haven't picked it up. His Last Mistress is available everywhere. It's also available in paperback for those who like it. Book. My son is one of those people who likes a paper book. I read one recently and not sure I'm gonna go back to that. You have to carry it around everywhere and move it around the house. And I have given up my late night reading positions. I used to have a whole world around reading books in bed and now it's reading ebooks in bed. I never thought that would happen. That said, I aim to please. So the book is available both in ebook and. And in paperback.
So this month I have the joy of interviewing debut author Noel Stark. So I have to say this is the funniest thing about the interview. So, you know, we get on the podcast and I was complaining about some noise outside and the way I was describing it, something I must have said, she was like, wait, where do you live? So it turns out we live on the same street in Los Angeles. The street is maybe two miles long, I don't know.
But that was interesting. That has never happened before.
Who knows? It probably won't happen again.
I mean, that just oddest thing. But it's super interesting to talk to a debut author whose debut is in romance, in traditional fiction, but not in the way that most people I know started. So many of the people I know started either with Harlequin series books or with E First, but the world has changed so much. So she's doing something different where she's going straight into trade and that I've known very rarely people to do that.
So the other thing that's super interesting is that she writes about Hollywood. Hollywood as a concept, not Hollywood as a place. And it's something that I've written about maybe in, oh, a number of books somewhere. Like I've written like five books. Like I Had a Hollywood series of romances and then I had three books that take place just like basically at a, how can we say this? A made up network that is very close to where I am. And it's interesting because what Hollywood provides for backdrop is workplace romance and forced proximity. There is. And so there's no other industry that I can think of. There probably is. I just don't know it. Where people are together for many hours for long periods of time, whether it's a movie that's like six, eight, ten weeks or a TV show that's like, you know, hours and hours and hours on Fridays a week. So it provides all of that which from living here can foment all sorts of interesting relationships. So without further ado, let's get to the interview with debut author of Love Camera Action, Noelle Stark.
Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the delight of speaking, speaking with Noel Stark. Say hello.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Hi.
So.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: So Noel.
I'm sorry. So Noel is an author who's coming out with a book. I want to say. Oh my God, in a couple weeks. How do you feel about that?
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, I feel so unprepared. Actually. It's been in, in. It's been coming out, you know, quote unquote coming out for months and now suddenly it's coming out in three weeks. And I'm like that, doing. So it's, it's a lot, but I'm sure it'll be great.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Okay, so the book is called. So the book is called Love Camera Action. And to give a little background, I'm going to let Noah speak to this, but to give a little background, she lives in la. We just found out. We live like half a mile from each other. Literally.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Crazy.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: On the same street.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: On the same street. Which is also kind of odd. I mean, it's a long street, you know, it's not, I mean it's actually not that long. Maybe it's like a mile long.
So how long have you been in LA?
[00:08:10] Speaker B: I came in 2017.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Oh, you're new.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: So I knew and I am, I know it's true. But during the pandemic I'm from Canada, so I went back to Canada during the pandemic because, you know, I had a five year old and we were living in an apartment and in Canada I had a cabin. So I didn't really want to stay during the pandemic, you know, well, honestly with the healthcare system here, so I wanted to get to the Health, we know.
Okay. Sorry. Your healthcare system is challenging, I will say.
And so I wanted to go back to the healthcare system, but also because we had a cabin just to have some space so that my son could kind of run around. So I was back in Canada for a year and a half and so we were back here in 2021. So we've been here since then.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: Well, okay, I have about a thousand questions. Let's start with why did you want to write a romance? So my listeners know this and I just told you this off Mike. So I used to write romance. Actually I don't think I will write it anymore. There's never say. There's not, it's not a never say never but you know, but maybe not.
So I started writing romance many, many years ago. I think I published my first one in 2013 and the last one was maybe probably during the pandemic, maybe 2020. I'd have to think about that part. Not sure.
And, but I grew up in a time when there was a large in person romance community.
And you're coming, you're coming to it at a completely different time. I have so many questions about that. But what made you write romance at this current, like at this current time?
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Well, I think I went through a massive romance reading binge. Like huge. Like I was, to be honest, I was having a lot of trouble with my relationship and I needed an escape. And the thing that romance really offers is this place where, where you can read and feel safe as you're reading because you know it's going to end well. You know, people will be put through their paces, but that's okay. And it will always be a happy ending. Like nobody's going to be, you know, killed or murdered or raped or whatever.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: That's for sure true. I can't do the same with thrillers. But yes, so.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: And it gave me a space to kind of work out what my problems were in my relationship. So I was reading romance novels like all the time. All the time. Like one every two days. Like 250 books a year, like a ton. And I read one and I kind of got it into my head that oh, you know, I could write one of these. Like I work in.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: I, I know, I'm sorry. We all have started there. Yeah.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: So naive. Like I, I'm like, yeah, that's, I totally understand how the, how the formula works and, and I can do this no problem.
You know, many years later after I went through many drafts because it was my first book. It was my first time writing a novel. So I had a lot to learn it. I was very pleased that it got picked up and, and is about to be published. So it was sort of a whim. I often enter into a lot of my creative projects on whims.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: I think many of us do.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think if we knew how much work went into them, we probably wouldn't do them.
But that naivete, that sense of bravado kind of really helped launch me into it. And so I, you know, I've always loved romantic comedies in films and, and I just really wanted to go into the, the novel space because also I had been working in TV and film for so long, and when you have an idea in film or tv, you have to talk so many people into believing in your project. You have to get money, you have to get energy, you have to get huge crews. Like, it's a really big, big undertaking. And with novel writing, it's kind of just you, you, you don't like. Of course you have help from editors or Beta readers or family and friends. Of course you have that type of help. But you don't have to convince anyone about your story. You can just write it. And that was very, very attractive to me because I was tired.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Well, it seems like, honestly, it may be very freeing in the sense that.
Well, I mean. Okay, so I've lived in, I've lived here a long time and I know a lot of people in film and tv. And while we all say at the end of the day, well, it's a collaboration, getting, you know, I don't know, 50, 100, 200 people. To collaborate on something is no mean feat, you know what I mean? No easy feat. It's just, it's, it's, it's a lot. So did you come to LA to do television?
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I came to LA to do television. I'd sort of hit a wall in Canada, which is where I'm from, which is, you know, got a, A good, healthy industry. But, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to change things up and come down to la. So that's why I came here.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: So what did you do in television?
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I've done so many things. I've done. I've gone from the bottom. Production assistant, locations assistant.
Not the casting's the bottom, but I was at the bottom of casting right up to producing, writing, directing. I was an actress for quite a long time.
I was a musician.
So I did pretty much, pretty much every role you can have in TV and film in multiple formats. So, yeah, yeah, that's. I've done a lot.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: What, okay. Did you do. Well, it's. Everything has changed so much. Did you do television in Canada?
[00:14:35] Speaker B: I did television in Canada and here. Yeah.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: So in Canada, were you doing. How can I say this? Were you doing Canadian productions or American productions or both?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Both.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Both. Okay. Because I know people on different. Let me say this. When people put crews together, sometimes there are people who are Canadian, but they've only working on American things or they have both backgrounds or whatever. There's like a whole. That's a whole different conversation.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: And that's sort of why I made my main character, Callie, who's the director in the. In the book. She's got her big Hollywood break.
The. She's gotten this chance to direct a TV series that shoots in Atlanta because a lot of Hollywood stuff.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: And she's gotten her big break and. But she's Canadian and she's done a lot of work in Canadian shows which don't have the same output reach, obviously, as American shows.
So she's kind of seen as a newbie on the set because she's got all her experience in Canada. And so I really understood that point of view and I. And I chose. I chose that point of view and I chose the world of scripted TV in this case, because I knew that world. I know that world. And I.
I didn't want to spend a lot of time on world building. I wanted to spend time because. Yeah, right. It was my first novel. So I wanted to focus on the writing, I wanted to focus on the relationships, I wanted to focus on the banter between the two leads. I didn't want to have to think of about a brand new world.
So I made it easier on myself in that way.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: So, okay, so, okay, I have two thoughts. One is, and only because, like, this came out recently, like in Deadline. And some things people do have feelings about hiring Canadian lease, like directors and showrunners and bringing them into shows in la. People seem to have a lot of feelings about that.
And I'm not sure it's so hard sometimes to separate the personality of the person who is here from the feeling that they have. Like, why didn't they bring somebody up from here?
I mean, somebody up through the ranks is what I mean by somebody up.
And that's. It's. That's its own thing that maybe I'll leave alone. The other thing is Atlanta I have. Okay, so I have a friend who retired early and he was like. I'm like, why are you retiring? And he's Like, I didn't move to LA to live in Atlanta. Um, so have.
Well, you're Canadian, so you may have fewer thoughts on it. How do you feel about the productions, a lot of these productions being. Well, it was before it was Atlanta. There was South Carolina, and then sometimes it's like Nevada and sometimes it's like New Mexico. It depends on, like, where the tax credits are at the moment or like Toronto or British. Whatever it is. Like, it's. I mean, I know people who, like, hop from place to place depending on, you know, where the money is.
Well, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe you have no thoughts. What are your thoughts about that?
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Just for the two things that you were speaking to in terms of being a Canadian and coming down to la, it is extremely difficult to get a foothold in LA as a Canadian. Extremely difficult. You have to go through so many hoops, you have to go through so many immigration hurdles that if Canadians are down here, it is because they are really, really good at their jobs and. Or they have an idea that nobody else does. So it's not as though, you know, there's a glut of American talent. We, we all know that there's massively talented Americans.
But, you know, I think what I really love about the, the culture here is that they're always looking for the next best thing. They're very positive. They're always looking for ideas and new thoughts and then. And, and because of that, they're looking at different types of cultures for those thoughts.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: That's true. That's true.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's not, it's not a. It's not a, like, bed of roses to go down here.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: No, it's just that it's an un. I don't say it's not unexpected. That's not what I want. Well, maybe it is an unexpected culture clash because. And this is. I. I'm. There's a show that's. That's dealing with this, and it's sort of like the idea that their ideas that they've had on the show for X number of years are like, the valid ones, and the new ideas are not the valid ones. And the new people are like, well, the reason your ratings are down is because there's new ideas and the reason the ratings are down, network television ratings are down in general. It's just like an endless, like, argument that goes around and around and around. But, but the genesis of, for this particular show I'm thinking about the argument was basically, well, they brought in these, like, Canadians. And if you know, why do they think they're better than the people who already been here? And why didn't they like, they become show mariners or whatever? So, yeah, anyway, that's just, it just goes around and around and thing is.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: That the, like, people blame successes and failures on things that are ultimately out of the control. Like, no one really knows why something is popular. They, they. It's not something that you can hold in your hand. It has to do with zeitgeist, it has to do with quality. It has to do with, you know, right place, right time. And so everybody's always looking for the formula. But at the end of the day, as you know, as an author, right.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: There is no formula. But it's fascinating. It's like when in, especially in like the book world, let's say it's vampires. Vampires are impossible or dystopia. So all publishers do is they run. They're like, well, if I just publish 50 more. And they're like, why is that one not as popular as the one that's the hit? And it's, it's always like, well, the one that was the hit became. It's a zeitgeist thing. But it's a certain place in time and it was the right thing for the right place at the right time. And it's hard to replicate, but the number, the, the amount of time you know this from being here that people spend trying to replicate the hit is like not zero.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: Sure, for sure. And, and you know, things come in waves because, you know, there was a time when vampires were really hot and now they're just not like, it's all Romantasy. And a lot of people are thinking Romantasy is about to be saturating the market. So then what, what's after Romantasy? I don't know.
No one.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Crystal ball.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Exactly. We'd all like, do, you know, werewolf, romantic vampire or whatever.
So, yeah, it's just, it's something that you can't really, you can't really figure out on your own. You just have to have faith in. Now to your, to your second point in terms of shooting in other places, like people have been.
Hollywood people have been shooting in Toronto and Vancouver for decades now, right?
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah. At this point.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, at this point. And they've been shooting in Atlanta, as I said, and other places are opening up, like Texas and like North Carolina. And it is really kind of sad from a nostalgia perspective that all of this shooting is moving out and out of la because there's really not that much going on here anymore. No, and that's very hard on the crews and the executives and the writers and the directors and everybody. And.
But it's not.
I can't say it's a good thing or a bad thing. I'll say it's a capitalist thing.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Well, that's the bottom line, honestly.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Movies need to save money and these other places are giving them breaks and that's why they're moving out. Now, whether you think that's right or wrong, that's. That's why it's happening.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: You know, I, I mean, I, I'm on board for bringing back production to la, but it's not going to come back until California kind of notices that this is a problem. And I mean, Governor Newsom is already, already offering, you know, hoping to budget more kickbacks for production. So. So we'll see. But yeah, it feels like a little bit of an end of an era, which is very sad to me.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: It's odd. It's. It's just odd. It's like, it's like, it's. It's one of the. Like before we were recording, we're just. I was just talking about, like, the. There's a. In Los Angeles, there's. It seems always. But right now they seem to be like, knocking down a lot of houses and building larger, newer ones in, in the neighborhood I am in the neighborhood I was in before, either way. And it's. Sometimes I drive down the street in LA and I think to myself, this is nothing like the place that I moved to.
But New York City is the same. When I go back to New York, I go, well, this is not the same either. So, I mean, you know, progress moves on. It's just that people, a lot of people I know about my age moved here with the idea that they would be able to like, have a full, like a full career from beginning to end here.
Payment. And that is not necessarily the case now. The people my age, honestly, we're just like playing out the clock, you know, and then people I know have retired early because it's just not sustainable.
But it. I don't know what that means for, like a new generation. Does that mean everybody has to be so flexible? Like, you know, you know, today we're going to be in Texas. Okay. Soon you're going to. And people, you know, I'm going to get an apartment. I'm going to be here for a year and then I'm going to move on to the next location. And it makes it seem like having the stable Sort of life that even like my friends whose parents were in the industry, grew up in is not going to be there anymore. So, you know, their mom or dad went down to the studio and then they drove home, you know, and, and they stayed in the same house and nothing changed.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't know. I mean it's the whole, the whole industry is in such turmoil because it's not, it's not just about things being shot in different places.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: Streaming, I mean there's like a thousand.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Streaming, it's, it's social like that. I heard a stat the other day that Gen Z 28 of them watch TV.
So that means, you know, what are they doing the rest of the time? They're on their phones.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Then where does that leave storytelling? Where does that leave television and film? It's, it's, everything's. I'm never, I'm not going to say that television and film will ever die because I don't think that's true. But it's certainly not going to have the weight that it used to, you know, when maybe you and I were growing up.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's, that is interesting because so I, so I, because I have a son and it feels like that all they do is they're on Tick Tock now. I don't know, 10 years ago it was something else. But right now it's that. And so he'll say, he'll tell me, he's like, oh, you heard this meme? And I was like, when did this happen? He was like, yesterday. And I was like, well, we're talking about it tomorrow. He's like, absolutely not. And that is 100% different than shows that came on. There's any number of TV shows that had like a huge impact because everybody, well, not everybody, but millions and millions and millions of people were watching them at the same time, you know, on the same day, you know, and it.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Was a shared cultural experience.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: And that is very. Now our cultural experience is very fractured and I don't know, I do wonder what that means for storytelling. But do you what I have found.
Okay, so books have had the same sort of, I'm sure, you know, not same like the number of like sub genres and like little niches in publishing has increased a great deal. It used to be like when I first started publishing it was like, do you slot into the slot in the bookstore? Yes, if yes, yes if no. It was lovely knowing you.
And with the rise of like Kindle and ebook publications, that did change and but that said, a book is still a book. So it's not a Tik Tok video or like a YouTube video or like a streaming eight, you know, episode order or a 10 episode versus 24 or 26 or something like that. So those with books, it feels like despite the changes and they were like tsunami, like I'm not under, like underselling that at all, that readers can coalesce around something a little bit more.
What are you finding? I know your book is not out yet, so you haven't had this experience yet, but do you feel that you would be able to reach like a solid core of readers with a book in a different way than reaching like a solid audience would be if you had XYZ show on XYZ streaming platform?
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you know what's really interesting right now in the book world and again, I'm, I'm a rookie here. This is my debut novel. So this is an entirely new world for me. And, and as you know, as an author, the world is always changing in the world of books. But yeah, right now what's fascinating is that people are reading more and maybe it's because of what you say that the, the market is fractured so much that people are finding what they want to read. They're, they're really seeing what they want. But also, I think this is my own opinion, but I think the younger generations are looking for some things that are slower because their TikTok, their TikTok culture is so fast that they're looking for other ways to consume stories that are slow. So you know, I'm on Tik tok, I'm on Instagram and I see so many people talking about books and it's so positive. They're really into it. They've made these huge communities in bookstagram and booktok and they're really talking about books and it's a person to person sort of community where you know, it used to be very top down as you know, the, the publishing houses would say this book is coming out and you'd go to your bookstore and that's how. And you would learn it from the trades. But now it's like all word of mouth and it's very interesting because you can get a good push on your book and I hope I can get a good push on my book because it's, you know, it's a rom com. It's a side of Hollywood that you don't usually see. You know, most Hollywood romances focus on the actors or sometimes the writers. But this is about a director and her director of photography. So it's very crew based. It's very much in the set world. So you see the. The machinations of what's going on in the set. So I'm hoping that will, you know, find its own audience as well.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: It's.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: It's very steamy and I'm hoping it's funny and all those kinds of things so it'll hopefully find its audience. But the thing is, is that, you know, it probably will find an audience because there's an audience out there for everything.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: There is. That's the. It's. I don't know if it's shocking or not. I can't ever decide because publishers always said in the back when it's very top down that there's no audience for this. And then ebooks prove that there's a huge audience for all sorts of things that you never thought there was an audience for. Oh, my God, so much. But then. Well, let me ask you this. In the world now where there's. Whatever. Now I don't like to think about these numbers, whatever number of books on Amazon or whatever it is. Do you think now that the discoverability or having people find you is going to be. Is a challenge?
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Because there's so many books, like, you must feel this as well as an author, that it's really hard to get visibility because there are so many indie authors. There's so many people vying for attention that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's also a fragmented marketplace in terms of marketing, so.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Oh, that's true as well.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's. Yeah, it's a challenge just like anything else. Like, even though people are reading more books, there are more books out there.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Books to read.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I don't know. It's all new world stuff. Like, the one thing about working in the TV industry that really teaches you is flexibility.
You have to be moving all the time. You have to be learning new things all the time. Because every show is different, every production is different, every, you know, you're, you're very much attuned to the marketplace or to what people are liking creatively. And so you have to be flexible. And so, you know, this is just another new thing to learn.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: That's. That is true. Okay, so I have two questions, but let me, let me go. Let me start here.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: How.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: I'm. Okay, I had a conversation with someone earlier, so I'm thinking about this now because he was asking me. Okay, so I had a conversation with someone, and he was asking me, how do. What advice would I give new authors? And that I don't know. But one of the things I said is that I was talking about building community. So when. Okay, now I sound like an old person. Back in my day, the romance communities and writing communities were very robust and robust in terms of being in person and robust in terms of.
I'm. I'm. Well, like, NaNoWriMo yesterday announced that they're like, their nonprofit is closing, and RWA had its own scandal. And so the. The robust communities that I used to, like, take part in are gone. Yeah, for the most part. But that said, I have built my own community during that time, and so I'm still close with lots of those people, you know, so there's, like, any, like, number of authors I could reach out to on any given day, because I knew them. I knew them when. So I guess the question. And so when he was asking me this, I was thinking about it a little bit. How have you built, or will you build community as a romance writer in a world where even community is somewhat fractured?
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a good question, because when I started writing, that's when the RWA scandal hit. And so that's. I really noticed just from. From, you know, an outsider, how fragmented the romance world became because of that scandal. And I think. And when that went hand in hand with the pandemic and you couldn't meet people in person, or. So I've. I've only. As an author, I've only known this sort of fractured community. And. And then on top of that, personally, I'm a single mom.
I work full time.
I'm an immigrant in a new place. And, you know, so I don't have a lot of time to build community.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: And so what I've done is when I find someone that I really love, I hold onto them with everything that I can. And, you know, I was part of Pitch Wars. I don't know if you know.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: So I was part of the last round of Pitch wars because Pitch wars also closed.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Pitch wars had had a very robust discord community, and I was very grateful to get on the tail end of that. But I held on to my pitchfor's mentor, who is now my coach and my editor.
I held on to the people that I met there very closely. And that's kind of what you have to do, I think, because the world is so distracting. There's so many things you can be doing and so many Ways you can go that I just held my friends very, very close.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair. Do you.
Well, okay, I'll ask this.
Are you working on another romance? Because one of the things that I think I learned early on in the romance community, and this is a different publishing that was like back when Harlequin was king or queen or whatever and, you know, writing rapidly for certain lines was a whole thing would have.
Do you feel, and I understand, like a job and a kid, like a whole separate thing. But do you feel a push or an urge to already be working on the next one?
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, yes, because I think I. Well, first of all, I'm kind of compelled to do it. I have a little bit of a compulsion to write these stories.
Like an internal drive to do it, not an external one. But I think you have to, you know, and you could speak to this too, I'm sure. Like, you have to be thinking about what the next book is because, you know, I'm building a new world here. I'm building brick by brick a new. A new world with this book. And it will hopefully launch another and another. So I've. I've. When I finished this book, writing it and it went out on submission, I immediately started working on another one. And it was on another different vibe. It was a romance, but it was more speculative fiction.
Because I thought if I didn't. If my first novel didn't go, then there would be no point in me writing the second one because that series, you know, maybe. Wouldn't. Wouldn't.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah, there's that. Yeah.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: So I started another series and then I just finished a book proposal for the second book in the series of my first book, if that makes sense.
So, yeah, I'm always planning, I'm always pushing to write more as much as I can. Like, you can only. You can only do what you can do. Right.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: But I know there's only. Everybody gets 24 hours in a day.
26. But apparently nobody's going to give me a couple extra ones.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: So you said you went through a romance reading binge. What? Well, let me ask you what years were that? Because I'm just trying to get a sense of what era of romance that was. I started reading romance in the. Oh, boy. I read 70s. 80s. 70s. Like from like my grandma's house. 80s romances when I was old enough to get them myself at the library. Library. And then from there on.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, okay, so I had two phases and one was when I was quite young because my older sister read romances and I used to steal them from her and write. I read them in secret. So when I was like nine years old, I was reading these very, like, very bodice ripping historical romances where sometimes I go back and read them and I'm like, eek, I know.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: Well, we, we all know that not everything has held on. Let's just say that.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: No, yeah. Let's say we made some good choices later.
So when I was really young, I read a lot of romances like up until I was a teenager, like an older teenager. And then, so then the second round started around 2018. So I was reading stuff kind of from the late 2010s.
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Now to. To more.
More recent ones. And. Wow, there's been even a really big change.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Oh, it's huge. Oh my God.
There's so. I mean, we've gone from like, how can I say, this rapey and dubious consent world or a sense where. Well, they used to be only told from one point of view, women's point of view, and you never knew what the men liked about them, which would be like, critical to know that information to now with like, dual point of view. Dual points of view and very, very different rules. For the most part. There's everything around consent and around the developing relationship and a little bit more mutuality. What? So. Well, okay, I didn't.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: A deeper sense of emotion from both of them, I think. Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:06] Speaker A: So in the earlier one, since you didn't. So this is. You seem to have like a similar path many of us because you didn't pick them yourself. And this is your, this is like your sister's taste.
What? Well, you know, you pick up what's. What's there.
Yeah.
What were your favorites back then? Like, what was it that hooked you? Because like I. To this day, I'm still trying to describe what that feeling was that hooked me. Oh my God.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: That's such a good question. Because, you know, what is, is it that is so hooky about romance? Like, it's like a little bit of a drug when you.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Compelling. But really why.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: And I don't know if it's because of the conflict. Like, the stakes seem so high. Like, I don't know about you, but when I see movies or read books where the lovers don't get together, I am devastated. Like, I am screwed up for days. I am like bawling my eyes out. So there's something about the, there's something about the coming together of two people and maybe it's just deeply psychological of like finding that missing Part of yourself or like changing to a point where you, you can accept someone is, is like it locks into something and you're just desperate for that to work. I mean, if I think back to when I was younger, you know, gosh, there's just a thing of.
Maybe this is a female thing. I don't know because I. I don't know too much about men reading romance novels. I'd really love to know because I'm very curious about that, but.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Oh, I'll tell you one day, like a lot of the readers for romance are actually people in prison because those are the books that are available. So that's.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, really?
[00:41:00] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of romance in prison libraries.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: That is fascinating. Oh my God, yes. Let's talk about that.
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, women being able to be seen for who they are, to have someone who can help them, someone who is like their partner and their ally. There's something very, very satisfying about that. Hope.
I don't know. What do you think? What do you think?
[00:41:27] Speaker A: Oh, I don't know. Like, I don't, like, I don't know because I still. So. I have. So I don't have the original, but the first book I read was a book called the Taming of Tamsin. It's like, it's a. I swear to God, probably 40,000 word harlequin from the 70s. And it was the first one I read because it was in my paternal grandmother's house. My other grandmother read different kinds of pulp. Other. A different kind of pulp fiction, I'll say that. But they basically. They basically like they bought books in the train station or our newsstands in New York City.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: So like, you know what I mean? Like, so this is what it is. This is where I grew up.
There was. So the thing is. And the book is, I've reread it, not in the last probably 10 years, but basically, I think she's. It's like a boss secretary romance. She works for him. Like it's sort of gothic in the way, you know, he has a cabin or like a house somewhere. Like it's always on the main coast or something. Maybe it's on the English coast, one or the other. It's a rocky, northern, cold coast.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: You know, and he's in his room working on who the heck knows what.
And she comes in and he's always like grumpy and yelling. And then, you know, then there's like. The reason he's grumpy is because he's falling in love with her. There's like one punishing kiss and the next thing you know, the book is over.
Yeah, none of that sounds great. And yet, and yet I found it compelling. And I was like, what else does she have?
And so that's how I started it. And I still, to this day, this day, don't know what was compelling. Although. Oh, God, I've thought about it and thought about it, thought about perhaps it's because he saw her. So I don't know the. I don't remember the facts of how she got sent up here, but it wasn't like a whole, you know, whole village of people were looking out for her. So I think it's that, that seeing that seeing which in real life is either great or horrible. You know what I mean? So, I mean, in real life it's either like somebody sees you or it's like love bombing and craziness. So it's, it's in the books.
[00:43:27] Speaker B: It's.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: I can see how it's compelling in real life. It could be a green flag or a red flag. And I think that that's one of the things that's difficult about that whole thing. So when you started reading romance, the newer ones, which sounds like the era in which I published but not the era in which I started reading, what did you. What was compelling about them? Because they were. These are worlds apart. I mean, obviously it's like, if it's like a heterosexual romance is man and woman, like, falling in love and, you know, overcoming whatever the obstacles are for them to be together. I mean, that's, you know, the fundamental story. Yeah, but a huge world away.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: A huge, huge world away. So the, the ones that I started out reading were all historical romances, mostly by L. Spencer and Kathleen. Kathleen Woodwise, like, those kinds of things.
And then later I was. I was literally reading anything contemporary, historical, paranormal, romanticy, sci fi, anything I could get my hands on, erotica.
And I think, I think what I really loved about it was the breadth of stories that you could tell as Roman.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: And also, you know, like, I was. I was reading about all sorts of different relationships like MMF and MM and, you know, asexual and all the diff. All the different kind of categories that we have now. And I, I found it fascinating because it was a world that I hadn't really thought of as a cisgendered woman, you know, and so it was.
I think that the, the, the fact that they're so many different types of romance and because you have that engine of the romance, like the story engine of whether or not they'll get together. All the other stories that you're learning, it's all going in because you're just waiting for them to get together. And I think that there's something. Why are we compelled to watch action movies? Because we want to see the hero win. Right.
Why do we watch thrillers? Why do we watch murder stories? Because we want to see the murderer caught.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Right?
[00:45:37] Speaker B: So it's. There's. There's a compulsion in those stories, too. So I feel like it's something deep wired in our psyches that we. We need to keep revisiting these types.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: Of stories over and over again.
Fascinating. It's fascinating, totally, because we revisit the same, like, oh, my God. So Hulu just got Law and Order, which I was told they would never get because it was so expensive. So I don't know what happened. I'll have to call around to find out what happened. But I was, like, scrolling through, and I was like, oh, wait, they have Law and Order now. And I was like, oh, I can't even. Like, I'm not clicking on this, so. Because I find it compelling in the sense that even though I know especially with Law and Order, the justice may not win out depending, but it's somewhat compelling to watch that journey. And I. I literally, to this day, don't know why it is. It's like, I'm gonna watch the next one. It's like 20 seasons of that. Like, 25 seasons. And yet I'm like.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Like, huge, huge viewers. And it's. That's the exact same every time. Like, the first name every time. And yes, like, maybe one out of ten, the. The killer or the rapist or whoever doesn't get caught, but most of the time they do. And. And it's really just about seeing the puzzle. So, you know, with romance, it's the same. Like, what's the puz getting together? What's the puzzle that they have to give and take for each other and change for themselves? This is. You know, this is the difference I find about new romances is that the characters need to make their emotional change within themselves before they get together with the other person. Whereas I think in earlier ones, the other person was the answer to their problems, now they have to figure out what their problem is on their own, and then they're able to accept love, which I think is a fundamental difference.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: So do you think, okay, nobody's ever said this. Do you think that. That evolution is Playing out in real life. Because what I'm finding, and this is from too much TikTok that people send me unfortunately. So you know, so there's there in like in real life in the US right now. I'm not going to speak to other countries because everybody's got their own going on in the US right now. There is and I'm going to say this, a so called male loneliness epidemic where in the solution is posited often as if a woman would just, you know, marry them, have sex with them, whatever. I don't know what they wanted to do but come save them. And in. But women on the other hand are in America right now, seem to be going through a different journey where they're trying to like figure out for what they can change or fix, not necessarily heal, let's just say about themselves to become a more compelling partner. And those are a mismatch.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: And those, those, those narratives. And it feels like the one narrative now. It feels like the one there was the 1970s. Well, if you could just find a wife and you're like, okay, and then, and then what? And women are like, if we could just have the, if we could like just evolve and then meet each other. And I'm like, these people can't date each other because they're not on the same. Like. Yeah. They're not in the same world.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:52] Speaker A: That's interesting. I wonder if. Because what you're discussing is evolution. Romance is maybe an evolution. Women as they predominantly write romance. And I wonder if there's going to be a similar evolution in men in that world to figure out on their own what the, what, what it is that they need to change or not change or figure out what they need to figure out in order to be in a successful or healthy relationship.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah. It's such an interesting topic because a lot of people are talking about that. Like there's so many books about women leaving their marriages because they're exhausted, they can't take it anymore. And then there's so many. This idea of male loneliness. I'm, I'm, I'm very curious and I put this in my books, if I'm putting it in all of my books that I'm writing is the idea of male toxicity and how do you fight against it as a man? Like what are men supposed to be doing in the new world order? And I, I think about this because I have a son, you know. You have a son?
I have two stepsons as well who are in their 20s and they're facing this kind of stuff. And it's. I think, I think men just don't really. They've been told all their lives that they just need a wife to look after everything and that it'll be fine and they'll get a job and, and everything will be great.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:50:13] Speaker B: But we're not living in that world anymore. And I think men don't know what to do and they haven't really been taught what to do.
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Right. And. Yeah, but then. So the question is, are they going to figure out themselves or. Because who. I was watching something about this maybe last week and it was two men talking and some. I don't know if I don't know what the podcast video. I'm not sure what I was watching. And I, what I was looking at. And they were trying to figure out. They're like, well, who's going to tell them?
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Like, they're like, who's gonna.
[00:50:43] Speaker A: And I was like, I, I feel that this is a conversation the two of you should be having because I don't know, I only have one son, so, you know, it is what it is. But. And well, I mean, I talked to him about. We talked, we talked about it a lot because the n. Some of the things that people say at school and These are like 15 year old children, so you know what it is. But some of the things people say, I'm like, oh no, that's a no. And oh yeah, that's a yes. But like, we do talk about that a lot. How people talk about relationships, how people talk about girls and women, all of those kinds of things. But I only have the one kid. And even the things that he's hearing, I'm like, oh, okay. The evolution's not quite where I thought it was.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's shocking sometimes. You're like, are we still saying that.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: In the car? I'm like, wait, what? Oh wait, I gotta drive to the Olympic. Hold on. Like, let me pay attention. But so what? Okay. Did you include these, this kind of thing in your book on purpose?
[00:51:38] Speaker B: I really did. I really did.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: That's super interesting. So what were you. What, what is the. Without giving anything away. I mean, obviously we know the book has a happy ending, but without giving anything away, what is it? What kind of conversation or thought? Because people can't think in books as opposed to television.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: What were the conversations or thoughts that people had around this?
[00:51:56] Speaker B: I think. Well, the thing that I was, I was trying to focus on in the two, the two main male characters was because there's. I've Got like two, like, kind of supporting characters. The main guy, Jory has to understand, like, he's a director of photography. He's mostly worked with men. Like, they mostly, you know, men are generally directors. So when Kelly comes on and as a director, she's not just facing being a new director, she's facing all the kind of quiet sexism that comes towards women in that role. And so Jory has to figure out how to speak a new language because she's bringing something very new and very, like, big F feminine to the. To. To how she's telling the story. And he realizes that she. He's constantly shutting her down just because he. She's not doing things like a man would. So he has to figure out, like, how to change his own approach. And. And because he does figure it out, that's what makes Callie fall in love with him because he. She's like, oh, my gosh, you're trying. Now on the other side, I've got the two actors and. And the. The. There's the woman and the man actor in the series. And the man, Paolo is his name. He's. He's been put in the series because he's a model and he looks the part, but he doesn't know how to act. And that's never happened. That never happened.
And he's very scared. And how does he. How does he show that? Is he. He's very arrogant, he's macho. He does all these very male, toxic kind of things. And to the point where he actually does some inappropriate things to the actress on set, Talia, who's furious about it and wants to report him to the union. And he. He reports himself to the union because he realizes his mistake. And Callie, when she's talking to Talia, says, you know, Talia is about to walk off the set, and Callie's got to keep her on the set. And he says, you know, you have to decide what is right for you. But I would look at Paolo as, you know, a guy who's done something wrong, but now he knows that he's done something wrong, he's taking responsibility for it. And he's the type of guy who probably didn't have any ill intent and is trying to learn a different way. And then Callie says, I think this is really important. But, Talia, it's not your job to teach him what the right way is. And I think, you know, I think that's a thing that we hear all the time. Like, the women have to teach the men how to do things, you know, you hear it about, you know, race. It's like, oh, well, if, if that race would just teach us how to be with them. And I'm speaking from a white person's perspective. You know, why don't they teach us? It's like it's not their job. Teach us. It's not women's job to teach men. Men just have to read a book and figure it out.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: Right? You know, I hear they have more leisure time, so I think they have the time to go find a book.
[00:55:01] Speaker B: How much more leisure time? So I think that that's an important distinction to make is that the, the men need to change and they kind of have to put in the work.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: I wonder, okay, the world has a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of noise, especially in our 247 news cycle. And I do wonder if that's going to happen. Like, just speculatively not. I don't, like it's not every day. I wonder. But I do wonder kind of from time to time whether that's going to happen or what is going to be that shift. Because, and I'm not saying, like, we have 8 billion people. Like, I don't think our population's going to suffer. Like, I don't think that's the biggest problem. I mean, I know that like Western countries have, have obviously much lower population growth than the French are. Like, look at our problem. I mean, you know, that's a whole thing. If women were just, oh my God, I watched this documentary over like maybe two summers ago, like a mini, like maybe 20, 20 to 40 minute documentary when I was in France a couple years ago. And they were like, the French are having like the declining birth. And the solution was, I swear to God, they're like, well, if women would just like marry these men and then have children, but then go back to work because we need them to prop up the social, you know, safety net. And then, and I was like, oh, that sounds like four jobs. I was like, if I lived in Europe and I had like health care, I might opt out of three of these jobs.
[00:56:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:56:26] Speaker A: And they can't figure out. And I, I, I. So I spend part of my time in Europe and so I watch these debates in all of these countries that are trying to increase birth because that's, they're paying for health care and Social Security type things with tax dollars. And you need, you know, people to work to have tax dollars in the capital system. So I watch them have these conversations and the bottom line is always, well, if women just did more. Then we could carry this.
Yeah, I don't know if you're going to get us to sign up for that, you know.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: I know, I know. And I think, you know, I do. See, I do. And let me be clear here. I love men to death. I am cisgendered women. I, I'm hat and I love men to death. I have so many men in my life. I'm not badmouthing them in any way, but they do need to figure stuff out. And, you know, I think we're all seeing the pendulum switch with like go from back and forth where I think men were trying to figure it out and then got very angry that they had to figure it out. And we're kind of in that.
[00:57:37] Speaker A: I'm not, not a fan of that particular phase. And so then I'm trying to, I'm hoping, you know, I'm aging so, you know, my time is short on Earth. It may not be forever. I do wonder then, is it going to switch back? Because the anger is not going to get you more women. Like, it's not going to get women to do more things.
I wonder if that's going to switch back and then that's going to change.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: And I, yeah, I honestly think it has to. And if you look at historical changes over the years, you know, even just 50 years ago where we were like men and women were in a radically different place.
And yeah, the pendulum will always be moving, but I think we're, I think we're moving towards more unity. I have faith that we are moving towards that.
[00:58:21] Speaker A: So let me ask you this because do you think then that the romance that you're reading, a current romance, has evolved more than people have in real life on the whole?
[00:58:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, interesting, because it's, it's sort of like sci fi, you know, like sci fi. Thought of all these ideas that then later were became inventions. Like they, you know, in Star Trek they had the tricorders and they had the communications devices and that, that went into our present day cell phones. And so in romance it's sort of like put, like what's ahead. If, if women can read these stories where, where men are trying to grow, then maybe they'll demand that. Or maybe if men are reading those in the prison system, like you said, maybe they'll, they'll, they'll get an idea of how to be with women differently. Now what I do find very interesting is that there's a huge upsurgence of dark romance, like everywhere. And it is about dubious consent and you know, men who are morally gray and you know, I understand the attraction of it, but I am very curious of. Of why there's such a resurgence.
[00:59:35] Speaker A: You just said something so you understand the attraction of it. So what do you think the attraction. Because this is something. So my friends and I who are romance writers do spend time sometime. This is not my whole life talking about why some genres are popular. They come, they come and go and all of that. What do you think the attraction is of this? Because this reminds me like the. There was a mafia romance era maybe like somewhere between five and ten years ago and then the motorcycle club went ones as well. Yeah, but what do you think the attraction is?
[01:00:04] Speaker B: I think two things going on which, you know, it's. It's a lot like the vampire. The attraction to vampires, the attraction to werewolf is that yeah, my man's a monster, but he's my monster and he battles for me. So there's like a sort of protectionist sort of thing like you can, you can control it, you can, you can. He's tame for you, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that's very attract of to read about. The other thing is, is I wonder.
And again, this is just a theory so hopefully no one will rail against me on this one. It's. I think, I think what they dark romance gives women is a safe place to read and think about these very difficult situations in a safe place. Because I think they're worried about seeing them out in the real world.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[01:01:00] Speaker B: And they're scared in the real world. And these dark romances give them a place to kind of exercise that fear.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: But then that may be the same. Then maybe that the compulsion then is similar with thrillers or even people who are into true crime where you can like view it, but it doesn't. And you're like, oh, this is what I would do. Or this is what happened. Yeah, but it's a. There's is some safety, psychological to whatever extent that you can throw all that off. Off some safety in the fact that it's not happening to you now, which I've always thought of the. Is the compulsion for me reading fiction at all is that you're like, oh, let me see how these people live. And then when I, when like I can peace out anytime.
[01:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah, you can put it down, right. If you don't like it, you put.
[01:01:46] Speaker A: It down like, nope, nope. Or like I'd find it compelling or. And I used to read these. I haven't read these in years. I used to read Romances with cheating and other things that. Not romances, just books in general where people would behave in such ways. It was step parents and cheating. There were two, like, things that sort of trigger triggering that were like, oh, these people are just being really awful. But I didn't have to live the awful.
[01:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:02:13] Speaker A: And you can have. It could. It could elicit or jen up all these feelings that I wouldn't have to have in my real life because I don't know if I could take it.
[01:02:21] Speaker B: Right, yeah. You were ever in that situation, it would be a horror show. But, you know, like it, it, those, those books let us kind of be in those lives, like you said to say, well, what would I do in this situation? Or what would I say? You know?
[01:02:35] Speaker A: Right. And then there are those studies that said talk about people who read tend to have greater empathy. And I think, I assume that's because they can vicariously experience situations you otherwise would. Otherwise would not feel, which in real life you only have your one life experience. I mean, it's. I'm only with one person 247 and I. She's only had the one experience.
That's it. And it's fairly like for all the things I've done, it's a fairly narrow cone. You know what I mean? Like, it's like I've done this and I've done that and that's about it.
[01:03:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: So are you. So you're working. Are you still working in television now?
[01:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's my day job and. Funny.
[01:03:16] Speaker A: I'm glad that you have one.
[01:03:18] Speaker B: I know I am really lucky in that way. I mean, it's. It was. There was a time when I wasn't working because there was just nothing being made. But yeah, happily I'm. I'm working at the moment. So.
[01:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Between scripted and reality or an unscripted. Because that's unless unscripted. What did you think you prefer storytelling wise?
[01:03:43] Speaker B: I mean, I'm, I'm. I don't know. This might not. This might be kind of the wimpy way out, but I honestly think that the story demands the medium. So there are, there are stories that I've told in short films, there's stories I've told in, in longer formats, in TV series, in reality. I think the idea demands the medium and that's, that's why it was not easy but possible for me to become an. An author and write a novel is because I dabbled in a lot of different mediums and I knew that the story tells you what medium it should be in.
So. Yeah.
[01:04:22] Speaker A: Okay, that's interesting. I think about it completely differently. I think about.
I mean, I think about scripted as well. It's scripted. It is what it is versus reality, where, depending on how you feel about it, you have to craft a story around what you have and how people do that. People have a lot of thoughts about, that's for sure, but you have to craft a story around what you have and who you cast. And who you cast doesn't always turn out to be who you think they are, which is its own thing with humans that, you know. But it's. It's an interesting way. It's like. Like, it's like crafting a story, like, after the fact versus crafting a story and hiring people to do it. And those are two different ways. And, like, I'm leaving. I'm leaving out the people who are like, I'm gonna improv the whole movie and that kind of thing. That's a whole. That's a different conversation.
[01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:05:13] Speaker A: Okay, so I have one last question for you, and I.
Let me say this. Given this. This. This book, what is the story underlying. What is the underlying story you're trying to tell? Clearly, I mean, we know what a romance is, but what is the underlying story?
[01:05:31] Speaker B: I think the underlying story is, you know, Cali.
Cali comes from a tough background. You know, she had. She also comes from a single mom, but her single. Her mom had a lot of, you know, she wasn't a drug addict, but there was, you know, mental issues, and there was, you know, potentially some emotional abuse issues. It's sort of lightly. Lightly looked at. And she. And Kelly had to look after her little sister to make sure her little sister ate and got school and all those kind of things.
And she grew up thinking that she had to do everything for herself.
And not every. Not only everything for herself, but everything for everyone else. And I think that she learns that she has the right to get help. She has the right to ask for it. She has the right to be supported.
And that's what Jory eventually does. And her sister also does. There's, like, a dynamic between her and her little sister that, you know, she kind of demands support, and I think. I think that's something that women have a hard time asking for. I think we're. We're taught. We're kind of socialized to do everything, and we can't, and we shouldn't have to. And I think Callie, when she comes to that understanding that she deserves help, that's what opens up her heart towards Jory to accept that help. So I think. I think that's the same. And Jory's story is very similar. You know, he's. He's got a health scare that's making him very grumpy and controlling, and he has to learn to give up that control so that he can, you know, enjoy life, basically, and enjoy love and let love in. So it's. It's asking for help. It's letting go of control and what that means for your life when you. When you do those things.
[01:07:36] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Then. So what's the trope?
Because I was like, is it Grumpy Sunshine or not?
[01:07:43] Speaker B: But it is Grumpy Sunshine, actually.
And it's also enemies to lovers because, you know, it's.
When she gets on the set, he doesn't want to have anything to do with her because he doesn't want any new ideas. He just wants to do his job and, like, close it up. And he. He wants to become a director himself, so he wants her job. And because he throws so many obstacles in her way, she's always fighting him and saying, you have. You can't dig in like this. You have to open yourself up. You have to change, or the show won't work.
So it's the enemies to lovers. Grumpy Sunshine. It's Hollywood romance. So it's. And it's, you know, and it's got a sense of force, proximity, too, because on a set. When you're on a set, you are with these people 12, 14, 16 hours a day.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: You can't leave.
[01:08:32] Speaker B: You can't leave. You're in this, like, box walkie talkie range. Yeah, I know, Totally. Everybody knows. It's so gossipy. It's so, like, all these things, you are. You're stuck in this situation, and you have to make the show, like, you have to meet the deadlines. You have to get it done. So it's got a forced proximity feel to it as well.
[01:08:53] Speaker A: For Express is one of my favorite ones. Yeah, they can't leave.
Look, you have to look in the mirror. Okay, so I have, like, a thousand more questions, but I'll save them for another time. I do. Well, no, because I want to ask you about tropes, and I want to ask. I have, like, a thousand things. Okay, Right. So. Because I was looking at your Instagram and the. The tropes that you don't like, and I was like, oh, she has thoughts. And those. Like, we all have thoughts.
We don't talk about them usually. Okay. All all that said, so you should. What is your Instagram handle? Because I do want people to go look at that.
[01:09:33] Speaker B: It's Ostark author.
[01:09:35] Speaker A: Okay. So you can look at it yourself. Don't have to talk about it. So all that said, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to share with you down the street.
[01:09:47] Speaker B: I know. That's hilarious. They should have just like I should have just come over.
This was a delight. This is such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for having me on.
[01:09:58] Speaker A: And with. Let me tell. Can you please tell listeners about your book one more time?
[01:10:03] Speaker B: It's called Love Camera Action and it's a rom com. It's, you know, even though it has some deeper themes, it's supposed to be funny. I hope it's funny.
[01:10:12] Speaker A: I don't write funny, so I can't say yeah.
[01:10:16] Speaker B: And it's a Hollywood romance, basically.
[01:10:21] Speaker A: Okay, well, I wish you luck with your release. This podcast will come out a little bit after. Not too far after, but a little bit after release. So I wish you luck with that and I hope you have a lovely day. I can see the weather outside. It's sunny and a little, little bit breezy.
[01:10:36] Speaker B: It's so nice outside. I'm excited to get out there.
[01:10:39] Speaker A: I know it's about to go out to. But thank you so much for spending time with me.
[01:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that was awesome, Amy. Thank you.
[01:10:48] Speaker A: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host author, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the Nicole Long series are now live. You can download outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your E reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. My next book, His Last Mistress Trip is available on all ebook platforms right now. Also follow me on Instagram and Facebook.
You can find me on TikTok at SocialThriller author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at a time to throw thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
