Episode 55: A Time to Thrill – Conversation with Aime Austin – featuring Kimberley Troutte

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the delight of speaking with New York Times bestselling author Kimberly Trout. So Kimberly is somebody for once, I actually don't know personally, although she lives here in California, but up in Santa Barbara. So a lot of the LA and Orange county authors I know because we travel back and forth to little mini conferences in the area, a lot of them actually are in Orange county because they have more hotel space, cheaper. But we did interact a lot before the pandemic and before RWA imploded. But Kimberly talks a little bit about this because sometimes people are actually out, not even the middle of nowhere. I mean, Santa Barbara is not the middle of nowhere. But sometimes when authors are outside of big cities or outside of big romance communities, they get orphaned in a sense that a lot of them join online chapters or only get to go to national conferences because otherwise it's a hassle, especially driving. I mean, if she drove from Santa Barbara to LA or Santa Barbara to Orange county, she'd have to give up one or two days of a month for that, and totally fair not to do that. So what's super interesting is that Kimberly has followed the path that a lot of authors have followed. If you listen to the podcast, a lot of us, or we all met in romance or through RWA or through other sort of romance connections. And I think there's a certain subset of women authors who start there. I'm not sure if it's because romance is such a huge seller, and we end up reading books that our mothers, grandmothers, aunts, cousins, whatever, have laying around, and God knows they sell millions of them. And back when I was younger, all in paperback. And they just floated around everywhere. Libraries, used bookstores, people's houses, they were ubiquitous. So I think in one sense, a lot of us sort of started writing romance because it was what we read. And to be frank, because the books are published in such large quantities, it is a great entry point for women writers writing fiction about women for women. All that said, most of us are pretty wide readers and probably pretty voracious readers. So, I mean, a lot of romances, especially back in the day, were 40, 50,000 words. We're talking like two, two and a half hours of your afternoon, and then you're, like, looking around to see what else people have. I read everything. A lot of authors read everything. And I think that at some point we, like, want to branch out and tell bigger stories. And I'm not saying romance are small or to minimize them. But due to the tropes and due to the structure of story, there are some limitations. There has to be, you know, a romance, it has to end in the half labor after. And you can have extra characters, extraneous stuff. It can be like the. The women's fiction or the fiction with strong romantic elements, but it needs to fit in a pretty small box. So a lot of authors, I think, branch out into other genres. So some other genre fiction, like thrillers or fantasy or whatever, other genres that have, I think, what a longer word counts? So you can tell a bigger story, but also maybe a little more flexibility. I mean, look in the thriller that you got to get the person in the end, more or less. And mysteries, you gotta solve the mystery, for sure. Fantasy, science fiction, don't ask me because I'm not really sure what that's about. But I do know that there are some, like, wider and bigger storytelling opportunities, a little less boxed in. And so a number of authors I know and talk to, and a lot of them on this podcast, have started writing other things because they want to tell different stories than falling in love. So Kimberly and I sort of talk about this journey during this podcast. That journey from starting where we start, and you'll get to hear where she ends up. But it's pretty interesting, the journey she's taken. And she has some similar things to a lot of other authors I know where there's a lot of no in between those yeses. So without further, further ado, let's get to New York Times bestselling author, Kamberly Trapped. Hi, and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the joy of speaking with Kimberly Trout. Hello. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Hi there. [00:05:35] Speaker B: How are you? [00:05:37] Speaker A: Oh, I'm doing really well. [00:05:39] Speaker B: So you. We were talking off mic and you were saying that you live in Santa Barbara. How long have you lived there? [00:05:47] Speaker A: Let's see. Since. Since I was about four years old, most of my life. I was born in the Santa Ana area, and then we moved up here when I was 4 and had been here since then. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. So I have a friend, actually, I just talked to her today who was born in Santa Barbara, and I'm literally like, you're the only person. Like, I was convinced she was born, like, Chicago and had relocated here. And she's like, no, I was born in Santa Barbara. I was like, who are you people? So most of my California friends are a transplant. So it's California people we find. We find you odd. Although my Son does say to me, you know, mommy, I'm now a California person, so you can't say that anymore. [00:06:31] Speaker A: That's right. And both of my kids were born in Santa Barbara too, so they're the first two of our, of our family that were, you know, actually born in Santa Barbara. [00:06:42] Speaker B: So how do you like living there? So let me say this. For many people I know Santa Barbara is sort of a fantasy location and I do have one set of friends that did relocate there and work remotely maybe 15 years ago, because the time is passing. But how would you like living there? Because for those of us in la, it's delightful. When we drive up there, there's like no traffic. You have a beach, you have restaurants, you have everything that we have, minus all the other stuff. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, we are a destination for a lot of folks from la. We do know that. Yeah. It's, you know, it's kind of like anything else. I was, I remember what it was like when I was a kid and it's very different now as an adult, but it's, you know, it's still a beautiful place to live. And I, in my day job, I, I work for the, the school district. And you know, it's, it's such a, such a strange set of circumstances where you have so, so, so many rich people who live in Santa Barbara and also so many poor people that live in Santa Barbara. And for our, our school district, for example, it's like, I think it's 60. More than 6, like 65, maybe 66% of our students and their families are low income. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Oh. I mean, in LA, it's 80. [00:08:09] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Majority of people I know send the children to private school, so that's its own separate conversation. But, so. Wow, that's, Wow. I didn't know that. I mean, I only have one friend who has children who lives there and they, you know, they have two. So, so I don't know that many. So that's so interesting. I, I guess I should have guessed that. It's just that the, like, I, I think I feel like Santa Barbara is one of the first places where like the median house price hit a million like years and years ago. [00:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:39] Speaker B: And then you're just like, well, that's its own thing over there then. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Right, right. So, yeah, so it's, it's so hard because things are so expensive. Housing is so expensive, which makes other things really very expensive to live here. And then we have that situation where people can't afford to live here most, you know, including our first Responders and our teachers and our police, you know, all that. It's. It's. It's too expensive. And therefore, what happens is people commute into Santa Barbara. But if you know anything about the area, we only have a couple ways in and out of Santa Barbara there. [00:09:21] Speaker B: Which I never figured out. [00:09:22] Speaker A: I was like, and so if you have a, you know, a fire, an earthquake, floods, we've had all of the above. And the roads get shut down, the highways get shut down. You can't get your first responders in if they're, you know, coming from the outside. It's a very, very dangerous and. And sort of terrifying situation for, you know, those kinds of emergencies that we've been talking about. So it's kind of where, you know, everybody's trying to figure it out. They're trying to do. In the school system, we're trying to do some workforce housing to try to see if we can actually build housing for teachers and staff. Yeah, it's. It's really an interesting thing. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah. It just reminds me a little bit of those sorts of towns where I was thinking about real estate today, but those sorts of towns where they had the mill and then they had the houses they built for it, or they had steel and they had the houses they built for or things like that. So I guess it had been historically a thing that people did. Even, like, I spent time in Europe, and somebody was saying, we. My friends and I walk around and take pictures, and they're like, oh, have you been to the. I can't remember. It was. And I was like, why is it there? And they're like, oh, they built it for the train workers. And I was like, got it. So that had historically been a thing, but 90% of those kinds of places are all, like, lofts now. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:47] Speaker B: At least in lake cities. That's so interesting. I mean, it's. It is a problem here as well. And it was a problem when I lived on the East Coast. And so they often had residency requirements, but in the alternative, people were like, well, you can have residency requirements, but if the residents can't afford to live there, then what? [00:11:05] Speaker A: Correct. [00:11:07] Speaker B: So. And that was. There was a lot of tension with that as house prices really, like, shot up on the east coast. And I don't think that that has been adequately resolved. And people like, we want teachers. And I'm like, either you have to pay teachers a lot more or you're gonna change. Something has to shift, and I don't. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Think has to happen. Yep. Or, I don't know, firefighters and police officers, you know, all of our very essential staff, you know, folks that need to, you know, be here to, you know, run the. The community. If they can't live here, it makes it very difficult. [00:11:44] Speaker B: I don't know. It's one of those. There's so many conundrums that exist now due to, like, increased housing prices, increased living costs that I don't necessarily see a solution for. I know I was just reading a book, like a nonfiction book about it today, and I was like, these are really big problems that have only exacerbated in the last 20 years. I have no solutions. I mean, I think there's obvious solutions. I don't think we have the political will for the solutions. [00:12:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:12] Speaker B: That's different. I don't know. I don't know. These are things I think about. So what? Well, let me ask you this. How long have you been writing? I mean, have you been writing simultaneous to working full time? [00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a. That's a good question, because I'm kind of at the end of that journey. I have been writing the whole time that I've been working, and I'm planning on retiring in June. So it's going to be interesting to see what that does to my writing. You know, I'm super excited about it because I feel like, yay, I'm going to have so much more time to write, but then I'm also not going to have the pressure of I only have this much time to write. I got to get it done. But I, you know, I. I've been writing probably since I was in my early 20s and, you know, and going to, well, going to school and then working and all of that while I was trying to write. And it wasn't, I think, until I had my kids, my firstborn son, he was born in 1995, that I realized that I wanted to do something other than just writing for myself. You know, I had these dreams, right? Everybody, you know, writers tend to have a dream of that eventually someone else is going to read their writings. That's typically what we do. But I was just so, you know, I didn't think I was any good. I didn't think anybody would want to read my stuff, that huge imposter syndrome that a lot of people have. But when my son was born, I started having real talks with myself about what I would want for my children, right. And what I would want for them to do with their lives. And I came to the conclusion that I would want for them to. To go for their goals. You know, their dreams and all that stuff and really put themselves out there and do that. So I needed to do that myself as. As a role model. Like, this is what you do when you want to get something that you dream for. So that's when I really, really started trying and, you know, trying to submit and trying to do, reach for agents and all that. All that stuff that. That we do, and especially back in the. I guess that was the early 2000s. And then you and I joined RWA about the same time I was hearing on one of your other podcasts, around 2005 or 2006, I believe. [00:14:48] Speaker B: I don't know. So I remember joining, but I don't know if I went to the conference the first year, because I'm not sure I had the guts. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Yes. And then. [00:14:55] Speaker B: So my first conference I went to, I believe was San Francisco. So I don't know if that was seven or eight, but that was the first one I went mainly because it was close, and the barrier to me going was pretty low. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:08] Speaker B: You know what I mean? I was there. [00:15:09] Speaker A: I was there. I probably passed you in the hall. [00:15:14] Speaker B: So that was the first one, I think I had the, you know, writing in your house and wanting to do that is one thing. Leaving your house and acknowledging that that's something you would like. Acknowledging publicly that something you want to do is a different thing. [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:32] Speaker B: So the. The delay between joining and saying it out loud, it may have been two months, but it probably is more like two years. [00:15:42] Speaker A: Amy, I'm with you. When I finally started saying, yeah, I want to do this, it was my father actually, who said, you know, you need to probably go to a conference, Go learn what you need to do to be a writer. So my first conference was in Santa Barbara. So they have a. What's it called? It's called the Santa Barbara Writers. I don't know. It's a relatively big conference that a lot of folks go to. And so he paid for me to go, and I went. And I knew nothing about a writer's conference. I had never told anybody out loud that I wanted to be a writer. I mean, I was writing, but nobody knew about it. I was afraid to have anybody read it. So I went to this conference, and I'm sitting in this, out in the audience with everybody else that's at the conference, and up on the stage are all of these other authors, big authors. Ray Bradbury was up there, all these big authors, and. And they're all saying, like, this is how the conference works. You go into a A room with all these other people, like, workshops, and these. These famous authors are. You're going to read your piece out loud. And these famous authors and everybody in the room are going to critique it. And. And then, yeah, okay, this is right. A person who's never even said out loud, she's an author, a writer, and I'm going to go to this. And then they said, and also in the audience we have today, editors and agents. They will cruise into these workshops. If they like what they hear, they may stop and talk to you. And I was so scared. I turned to the person next to me and I wanted to say something like, they can't be serious or something like that. And it came out as a croak. I lost my voice. I. For the entire time I was at the conference, I had, like, psychosomatic laryngitis because I was so, so scared to read anything I had written out loud. And have all these people, these strange, wonderful, much bigger, you know, amazing people, like, listen to me. And so. And I didn't know what I wrote, and I didn't know what it was, but I did have a piece. I had been working on this thing for a while, and at the very last day, in one of the rooms, it was a romance authority, and it was Laura, I want to say Laura Bradford. She's an older, Older author now, and I think she wrote for Harlequin many years ago. She was one of. In that workshop. And she said, darlings, I'm not. And she was very beautiful. I'm not going to, you know, have you read your pieces? I am going to read them to you so that you can hear how they sound to others. And I'm like, that's. So I turned my piece in. I sat way at the back. I covered my face with my hands, and she read. And at the end of it, the room, they clapped. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Somebody, they just read my piece out loud. People clapped. They actually maybe like it, you know. And so that was like, the first time that I actually said out loud that I was a writer and that. So that was like 2,000, I want to say, four. And in that room was this other author who actually lived near me. I'd never seen her, met her before, my wife, but she's lived in the same town. And she said, you know, you really should sign up with rwa. And I'm like, what's that? I had no idea. And she's like, well, it sounds to me like you're writing romance, I'm like, I am. So that's when I joined rwa, and the first one I went to, I think, was Reno, which I think was right before the San Francisco one. That maybe Relatively close. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:24] Speaker B: I don't remember that. I feel like it was. Oh, wow. I'd have to really think about it because I was. It was a long time ago. What. So, wait, what was the. What was the thing that you wrote? I mean, what. [00:19:41] Speaker A: Good question. I didn't really know what it was. And it was like. It was crazy. It was parallel worlds. It was a ghost story set in Spain in the. I don't know, 1400. Like, Queen Isabella time and contemporary story and the two. Like, this contemporary woman goes to Spain, and then she meets this ghost woman, and they, you know, they have parallel stories happening. I didn't really know what it was, but I. At the time, I didn't have a. When I joined rwa, I didn't have a. A chapter near me. I got things from Orange county, but it was way too far for me to go. So I joined an online one, and the one I joined was the Chiclet Writers of the World. And it was. What's that? Yeah, do you remember that one? [00:20:40] Speaker B: No. It was the era. I mean, when Chiclet was big. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And so somebody told me, because that I. I submitted another piece of that story, but I submitted the contemporary side of it to the Chiclet, to the Stiletto contest. And they told me, like, oh, my gosh, this is Chiclet. And I'm like, okay, I guess it's chicken. I. Honestly, Amy, I had no idea what it was. So I ended up getting second place in the Stiletto for that. The piece of that that I had turned in. I'm like, well, I. I guess this is okay. But I kept trying to submit it, and I kept not getting any responses from anybody. [00:21:21] Speaker B: And wait, had you only written, like, the first three chapters or had you written a full book? [00:21:26] Speaker A: I had written a full book, but I rewrote that sucker probably 50 times. Like, every time someone said, I know there's that. Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, now it's this and now it's that. So I just kept going and rewriting, rewriting. And then another year, the Santa Barbara Writers Conference came up again, and I wanted to go again, because now I felt like I could actually speak. So I wanted it. Like, I felt like I needed to redeem myself, at least for myself to go to that. And they had a contest that if you if you won the contest, you would get a free conference. And I'm like, oh, dude, I'm. I'm totally going for that. So I. But the problem was the keynote speaker was a thriller writer. And at the point. That point I was thinking, I'm only writing romance. I've. I'm now writing thrillers. But at that point, I was only writing romance. And the writing prompt was about. A man is walking down the street. He sees this beautiful woman up ahead. He sees her, like, in the lamp light of the. The street lights and thinks she's gorgeous. And he gets closer and he kills her. That was the writing prompt. And I'm like, okay, that doesn't work so well for romance because. [00:22:48] Speaker B: Immediately. [00:22:51] Speaker A: So I was like, well, dude, what am I gonna do? So. But I really wanted to go and I couldn't afford to go. And so I decided, oh, I know what I'll do. I did the prompt that the killer was actually deaf and he was going to take, you know, he had to take her because it was her time to go. She had a heart condition or whatever. And. And he's always has to, like, touch the person and he sees their entire life before he takes them. And he saw how beautiful she was and how she was this, you know, amazing person. And he. And she begged him for more time because she was finishing up building a homeless shelter for. For these people. And it was. The winter was coming and please just give me two more weeks to finish the homeless shelter. And he said, okay. And turn the powers that be on his on their heads as he stole her to keep her with him for, you know, and they obviously fell in love. So. So, oh, my gosh. That's what I wrote. And I ended up getting a free conference. And then later there was a publisher called Sam Hayne Publishing. Do you remember them? [00:24:08] Speaker B: I do. I have friends who had. Have. Well, did publish there, I assume. It's gone. [00:24:13] Speaker A: It's gone. So at the time, they were the second largest, like, ebook publisher for romance. They were big. [00:24:23] Speaker B: I remember this era. I mean, I of course, remember it. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Was like 2007, 2008. And so they were having a call for submittals. They were going to do an anthology short stories of humorous short stories. So I thought, you know, it's not laugh out loud funny, but it is super quirky. And so I submitted for that and I didn't win. But they contacted me and said, you know, we really liked it. Can you. Can you imagine turning it into a longer. Like a novella from a short story? And I said, oh, absolutely, of course I could. Even though I had never done anything like that, of course I can. So I did. And they bought it. And then on the heels of that, they asked if I had anything else. I was like, well, I've had this book, right, that. The Parallel Stories, that's in Spain. And you know, and I submitted that and they bought that. So the. The novella was called Soul Stealer and then the novel was called Catch Me in Castile. [00:25:33] Speaker B: So then your first. Okay. Because. Okay. I mean, I remember. I mean, I know I remember people who edited for Sam Hayner, a couple of LA based people who edited, edited for Sam Haynes. Yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to think. It's too hard because I can't remember people's real names versus their. What they use for that. But so did you. So what was that like? Because that was the. I don't call it Sam Haynes heyday, but it was kind of the heyday. [00:25:58] Speaker A: It was their heyday and it was amazing. And so I was like, okay, this is it. I'm, you know, now publishing and blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna just keep going. And I had a wonderful editor, her name is Deborah Nemeth, who after she bought those two books and was very, very gracious to help this total fledgling author figure out what she's doing. Helped me a lot. And then she. She left. So then I had another editor and I was trying to write the same second book with Catch Me Castile and follow the historical progress of like Columbus time period and also contemporary. Like, I'm still trying to do the two time periods. And I wrote this whole book and they didn't want it. And it was a book that was actually set for most of the time in Hispanolia, which in Haiti now. So I wrote this book, book, and I. Well, I actually submitted it and then the huge Haitian earthquake happened. So I lit. They were literally thinking about it when the earthquake happened. And I'm like, I've never done this before, but I contacted the editor and I said, pull my book. I just. It's not going to make any sense now. It's going to come out like a year after the earthquake when nothing's the same. No. So I had them pull it and then I just put that aside. And then I tried writing other books for them and I had a new editor and we didn't drive or whatever, just. She wouldn't, didn't go for anything that I suggested. So I had five years where I didn't sell anything after that. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:40] Speaker A: I have. [00:27:40] Speaker B: I have questions. So. Okay, so how did you feel? Okay, okay. The era. I feel like we were in the same era. So when I, like, joined RWA and got serious, I mean, I was doing like writing groups, like in la, but they were sort of general, I want to say, like Otis College, a couple colleges had, like these general writing groups where everybody in their genre was in the group, you know what I mean? And that probably not my best. Not my best move, but. So that was like 2,000, like 4 to probably 4 to 6, 7, 8, when I realized, oh, I need to be a little more focused. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Correct. But me too. [00:28:16] Speaker B: But in that era, there was this. How can I say this? This was like the cusp or not, honestly, when there was a shift in publishing. So when E Publishing was in its, like, nascent era. So how did you feel about that? Because there was a lot of. Okay, so I, Because I live in la, I joined like, Lara and Occas, we drive, not gonna lie about that, but it was only once a month and I listen to audiobooks in the car. But I. That era, there was a lot of pushback, at least at the LA group, about people making choices about E publishing. So obviously most of the members there in LA were traditional published, mostly for Harlequin. Some, you know, bigger. Some, well, what's now the big five, some New York publishers, depending on how long they had been in the business, so on and so forth. But there were. I remember people talking about Sam Haim, talking about Red Sage, and then I'm trying to think. Some of, you know, there are a number of those. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Yep. [00:29:26] Speaker B: And a lot of people were like, are you going to do that? Do you think it's a good idea? Do you think it'll, like, hold back your career? Will you be able to publish in print later? I'm not saying the digital first publishers didn't have print, but you know what I mean? Publish, print first, later. [00:29:41] Speaker A: There was a lot of that. There's a lot of kind of like a bias against ebooks at that time. [00:29:50] Speaker B: But you waited into that. Okay, let me say this. This is about me, because when I was thinking about this, I was. There was so much internal. I had a lot of feelings about it and there was a lot of conversation about it at these monthly meetings, at least. Lara. But how did you have any trepidation about waiting into the ebook first as your first publishing experience? [00:30:16] Speaker A: I. I did, but I've had a really weird journey into this publishing thing. And it's kind of like I always think, oh, I'm going to go this direction and. And it feels like the doors are just shut and I can't get in. So then I try something else and then some other door opens. So I. I've kind of. I've just kind of done that. I'll explain in the next segment of my journey so you can understand what I'm talking about. The next piece of it was, for five years, I submitted and submitted and submitted and submitted, and I could not get anybody to bite. And that was just, like, heartbreaking because I'm like, well, I know people are reading. They read my first books and liked them, but I just couldn't. I couldn't make it to that, what you're calling the next level of, like, traditional publishing. I couldn't. I just wasn't getting there. So I just. Well, I. I was like, well, I'm just going to keep writing. I'm going to keep learning. I'm going to keep going to conferences. I'm going to just keep asking the questions, like, what's going on? And so I joined a group that is called Romance Divas, which I don't think is around anymore. But it was an online forum, and I met so. So many authors, amazing authors through that forum, and I just, like, use that and I ask questions a lot like, what. What would I do? Da, da, da. So in that process, I. I got a mentor. And my mentor is Ann Marsh, and she's. She's written a lot of Harlequin and all different other kinds of. And some of her own stuff. And so I said, can you look at all these things that I've been writing and not getting anywhere and just be frank with me, like, what's happening? Why is nobody liking these things? And she's like, well, you're kind of. You cross genres all over the place. And that was, I think, the key. Like, that's why, like, I had the parallel, the ghost story, the contemporary, the historical. Like, I had stuff that I just always liked, a lot of things happening in my books, but I was not. I was not. People who don't know me from anybody were like, I don't know who you are because I can't figure out how to brand you. I don't know what you're doing. I don't know. You know, so that's what she told me. [00:32:36] Speaker B: We all needed from the beginning, I swear. Yeah, I mean, like, that's. It's the. It's the one thing that most authors and I talk about. If somebody had just said to you, right in a series or write in a genre, just pick your subgenre. And kids, you please stay in a lane. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Stay in a lane. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Many of us would have been, I don't know. Not necessarily. I don't say better off, but we would have had a easier path forward. I'll say that. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Correct. Yeah, exactly. And so that's kind of what she said. And I'm like, oh, okay. And she goes like, pick something. [00:33:10] Speaker B: What? [00:33:11] Speaker A: What? And I had already started thinking about a book and that I was working on. And I'm like, well, I mean, I'm kind of thinking about doing a SEAL like SEAL Team book. And that was like right before the SEAL Team stuff was all getting big. And she's like, okay, write that, because I think that's kind of getting big. And I'm like, okay. So, so I wrote and I had the first three chapters of my very first SEAL Team team book. It's called the, the series is called the SEAL Extreme Team. And the idea was I was with my son and we were looking at up and coming careers. And one of them was like a adventure travel agent who had set up all these amazing travel trips for very, very wealthy folks. And then they would have some sort of like, you know, like you'd go up, you know, climb some mountain or you know, all these amazing things that a travel agent would schedule for all this. And my idea was, what if I had this travel agent who was doing this and her very, very wealthy family was taken hostage during one of their trips and then who would, who would go in and get them out? And of course she'd have to send her ex boyfriend SEAL to go and help out. And so that's how. And, and her company was called Extreme Adventures. And so they were the SEAL Extreme Team. And so that's, that's. So I was writing that and I was three chapters in and I submitted to a contest and immediate, an RWA contest. I think it was the, the nola, I think in Louisiana. Anyway, one of them. And I finaled and the. One of the agents was like, oh, I really like this. And then all of a sudden I got like four other agents saying, oh my gosh, I really like this. And I was like, oh, is this happening? Am I now going to get an agent? You know, it was just so crazy. And I was like, this is amazing. This is exactly what I needed to do. Focus. And so I continue writing the book. And at the same time, another book that I had written, I had been submitting it and a small press said they Wanted to buy it. And so. But it was. It sounded like it was religious because it was called God Whisperer. And it was the story of a. A mother who's hiding for her life in a small town which looks very, very much like the one I'm in, that I live in. Not. Not Santa Barbara, but close to Santa Barbara, and changed all the names, but had all the same places. And she's hiding with her. Her little son, and her son has an ear surgery, and. And it allows him to hear God, Goes from being deaf to being able to hear God. So. And then what that happens to that little family when all that takes place? And it was so fun and such a beautiful little story. And I. This small press was like, we want to buy it. And I'm like, fantastic. So I went back to the agents. I'm like, well, while you're considering this one, you could maybe represent me on this other one, because it's a small press, and all four agents dropped me like a hot potato. [00:36:26] Speaker B: Wait, what? Okay, hold on. Be. Why? [00:36:30] Speaker A: That was my question at the time. Like, what? I have, like, a contract in hand. You're dropping me? And it was because the very same thing that Ann Marcia told me. They couldn't figure out how to brand me. They're like, oh, my God, you. So you're writing seals, and you're writing some sort of inspirational suspense. I don't understand who you are. No. [00:36:54] Speaker B: Oh, the lessons, the lessons, the lessons. Okay, so. Okay, let me ask you this, because I'm trying to think. Oh, I. Well, I have three ideas. Okay. If you had to do it over again, knowing what you know now, what would you have done? Would you have, like, submitted. Would you have published it with a small present or a different name? Or would you not have. [00:37:16] Speaker A: I probably wouldn't have told the agents that I had that going on. I would have done that on my own and then had the agents do the rest, you know, do the seals. But, you know, they may have found out and said, well, now we still are not going for. It was just so. I can't tell you how heartbreaking that was. And. Because I felt like I was finally getting close, and now. No. So I went back to Ann. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, this is so sad. I don't know what to do. And she said, well, there's this thing. And. And I said, okay, say more. And she and a group of nine other authors were doing a box set about SEAL teams, and. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:37:59] Speaker A: They had 10 authors, and this was way Back at the very start of box set kind of things. So she said we had 10, we have 10 authors and one of them has just dropped out. And maybe the others will accept you. Because she knew my book was good. She'd been helping me with it, critiquing it, and helping me figure things out. So, so we. [00:38:24] Speaker B: I have to ask you who was in this box? Because in my head I have like all these people. Like, was Sharon Hamilton in it? Was the woman. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Oh my God, Zoe York was in it? A whole bunch of people. So what happened was I was all. [00:38:39] Speaker B: The people who do. Yeah, I mean, who write this? [00:38:41] Speaker A: Yes. So. And then in one of them was Lynn Ray Harris. Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I think I may know all the people, but yes. Okay. Yeah. [00:38:52] Speaker A: So I, I was the baby of the group and not, you know, I didn't have a lot of publishing creds behind my name. So Anne said, I'm gonna step aside and let them decide if they want to take you. So. So Zoe York was the one who read my manuscript first. And she goes, absolutely, yes, bring her on. So I love Zoe. So we, we did that and we did that box set, the one book that all those agents dropped me on. And we hit the New York Times for a couple weeks in a row on that sucker. And the idea was to have your first book in a series in this box set and then were like crossing everybody's readers. Yeah, yeah, I remember. [00:39:40] Speaker B: I mean, obviously I've done this, but I remember this. I mean, that's how I hit the USA Today. But like the. Yeah, that's. [00:39:45] Speaker A: Anyway, it was, it was an amazing time. Yeah. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Because it was, it was a really an amazing idea. And the follow on readers were pretty, were pretty good. Not necessarily for me because I can't stay in a lane, but I got it. [00:39:58] Speaker A: Yes, correct. Right. So after. [00:40:01] Speaker B: Did you have subsequent books? [00:40:03] Speaker A: So that was the problem. Zoe said to me, kim, you gotta write fast. I'm like, okay. So very, very quickly, while all this was getting ready to go to print, I did a short story very fast. Just so like, hey, you know, if you want to see my stuff, here's a short story that's in the same world. And then I quickly wrote book two. And so book two wasn't in any sort of box set, but I submitted it to the readers and it was nominated. And I was up against the amazing J.D. rob. Of course, I didn't win, but that was, that was to me like the most amazing thing ever to ever happen to me. So. And for for your listeners. You know, the Rita was like the Oscars for romance books. So then book three, we did another box set. So the first one was called the Seals of Summer. And the next one we did the Seals of Winner. And we did. We just kind of. We did that, like, three different times. And each time we at least hit the USA Today on it. And so I had to write very quickly and. And then I just kept going on that. The SEAL Extreme team. So I have the four. Four or five books and a short story. And. And part of that was I went back to that Haiti book that I. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Wait, wait. Was also Cora Seaton had to have been in it. [00:41:36] Speaker A: Yes, Cora, also. [00:41:38] Speaker B: And okay, maybe people have all interviewed here, too, but Cora as well as, like, probably Elle Kennedy, Right? [00:41:44] Speaker A: Yes. [00:41:46] Speaker B: Okay. Sorry. These are. I'm trying. I'm sorry. I was just thinking. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that was. [00:41:50] Speaker B: I remember this era very well because I remember because when we were doing the box. Oh, I couldn't even tell you what year it was. We were modeling it on this thing. And I remember having these conversations with some people, probably Sharon only. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:05] Speaker B: About, like, what was successful. And it. They were. I mean, it really worked really well. It was just. Wow. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:13] Speaker B: No, it was the following books. The people who had this. The. A. Deeper. Had a backlist. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Or a bigger one. Did better. At the time I was in the box set. It was 2000. [00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah. It came out. That came out 2014, I think around there. 2014. [00:42:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I remember those times that I'm trying to think I did not have at the time, because at the same time, somebody had said to me, also, you should write a series. And I was like, you mean more than these? Just these two books that I got back from this publisher. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [00:42:50] Speaker B: I hear it was Tessa Dare. I remember she was like, yes, Tessa Dare. [00:42:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yep, Yep. [00:42:55] Speaker B: She was like, you all need series. Like, it was one of the first times. I was like, it was the first time it got through. Let me just say that. And I was like, got it. Yeah, got it, got it. And that was. Although I think she did it. I think she did hers with Sam Hayne to get that back, but whatever. But that was the time when it was sort of like, got it. But so how were you able to rapidly enough. How can I say this? Take advantage of that? [00:43:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I did. Like, I did. I mean, it was amazing. Just, you know, the process. Like, okay, I've got to do this. And I did. And, you know. But when to go back to that in order to do something like that you had to make a choice, right? You had to say. I had to say these books are now not going to go to a traditional publisher. I'm not going to get an agent on these. I'm making that choice. Like we talked about that earlier. Like, what? [00:43:52] Speaker B: Yeah. How was that? Because 2014, this was about the time. So in 2014, I had. I had two books published, I think, and maybe a third. No, no, no. Two books published in one out that had been accepted by a press. And I remembered, I remember I could see where I'm sitting. Like, I can see it in my head. I remember the idea is like, if I'm going to now do this, that means. That means I'm no longer, at least these books, not the rest of my life, are no longer on that traditional path. And even back then, writing a book was not. It's not easy now, I don't know what I'm saying. But it was only. It was like maybe my third, fourth book. You know what I mean? Something that there were so few that I was like, there may not be many more. So if I make this choice. It felt very, not heavy, but, you know, there was a fork in the road and you had to pick something. I mean, in retrospect, that it probably put too much on it, but it felt very. Not heavy, but just very determinative. It's like, here's. Here you go. You take in the right, you take in the left. [00:44:57] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:44:58] Speaker B: And, and how did you feel doing, making that decision? Because once you pull it and you know, I mean, you know, it's one and done. I mean, there are some, there are some exceptions and there's always like, things in the margins. But once you do that, that's done. And then you have to, in order to go down that path, you have to create a whole new thing. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Correct. That's, that's true. And that's kind of at that. So at that point I was like, look, I have been trying to do this for five years with the traditional publishers. I'm not getting anywhere. And this has now got some momentum. I'm going to just do this for a while. So I did. So I knew that that whole series was going to be my own and self published, and that's probably as far as it was going to go there. So. But I thought, you know, I still, still, still, still wanted to be traditionally published. You know, I wanted to get to the next level of a larger publishing house, not just a small press. So I started writing and I love, you know, I Always love writing about teams. You know, I figured out, and my SEAL team's like, oh my gosh, that's so much fun. I really love that, the banter and, and the teams. So I wrote my next set of books. I wrote three books about Alaskan coast Guardsmen and In Alaska. Yeah. So these are. I also, I didn't even know where that idea would come from. [00:46:25] Speaker B: I'm sorry. I'm just like. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Yeah. But I, Yeah, it's part of my thing that I realized is I really liked romantic suspense. I really like having a lot of action. I, I don't even, I can't even fathom, I don't even know how it happens that people can write a whole love story just about two people and there's nothing. I mean, it's. I can't do that. I mean, not that there's nothing because. [00:46:49] Speaker B: I can write 90,000 words about two people sitting in the room talking. [00:46:51] Speaker A: No. [00:46:51] Speaker B: And then later I'm like, oh, they have to leave. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea how you do that. I really don't. I can't possibly. I can't even come to grips with how you might do that. So in my stuff, there's always a lot of action and adventure going on. So the Alaskan Coast Guardmans, they are more like search and rescue. So there's always like some sort of search and rescue emergency, whatever. And so I started that and I, I'm like, I'm going to get an agent off of this. This is going to happen this time. So I tried to get an agent with the first book and let's see, with that first one, I, I think when I was working on that one, I think was when I got the Rita Nodded as a nomination for the other series. And so I thought, surely, surely an agent is going to want me for this. So I started submitting and I got an agent and she was lovely and she started submitting that first book in the Coast Guard series and had a lot of interest. And then I didn't hear from her for a long time and, and you know, I was like, ah, do I bug her? Do I ask what's going on? Blah, blah, blah. So finally. And she didn't return my emails. So I finally called the agency and they had let her go. Nobody told me, oh my God. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you too? [00:48:22] Speaker A: And I'm like, what? Wait, what just happened? And she was like, like the top. She was the romance agent in this agency. And I'm like, I. Okay, you guys didn't tell me she was not. You didn't tell me anything. I'm. I don't want to stick with this agency because now I'm stuck with the agency and not the agent. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:42] Speaker A: So I was again, freaking out, and I went to my dear mentor and Marsh, and I'm like, what do I do? And she's like, you know, I'm going to talk to my agent about this and see if she's got some suggestions for you. And so I talk with her and she's like, well, she had one of her agents call me and we got to talking and I got a really great agent out of that deal. Like, she was like, I will. I will take you. I will take you. This is amazing. I love my stuff. So that wouldn't have happened. Like, I wouldn't have gotten. I went, you know, I wouldn't have gotten a great agent out of that except for, you know, a lot of help from friends and. [00:49:20] Speaker B: Yeah, but these stories hurt me. I mean, not because there's always this idea, okay, because people always say this to me. A rejection or redirection or whatever it is. But that. Like that first, like that. That stab in the heart hurts. [00:49:34] Speaker A: Yes, it really does. [00:49:37] Speaker B: Before you get to the next thing and I. And you can't see the next thing when you're sitting there bleeding. You know what I mean? [00:49:44] Speaker A: You're like, correct. You know, and our stories are so personal. Like they come from, you know, our insides. And it's like, oh my gosh, nobody likes it and I'm just terrible and all those things. So. So I got this agent. But what I didn't realize and what I don't think anybody may know, others may know. I didn't know is that when the first one had submitted to all these editors. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. Well, no, in my head I was thinking if she left, maybe she hadn't submitted, you know what I mean? I had just lain foul. I don't know, in some paper. [00:50:20] Speaker A: She had. And so now I have another agent who is like, well, I can't really go back to all those editors again. Can't go back to that. Well, and so. [00:50:31] Speaker B: And yet here we go and write another book. I mean, exactly, exactly. [00:50:35] Speaker A: So. So she's like, so I don't know what we're gonna do about that. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna go write book two and I'm gonna. You know, I guess since I. I've already written book two, I guess this series will also have to be self published because I can't go anywhere with it. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Wait, can I ask you a question? Because I did this once. Is there a reason why you didn't turn or had you proposed a series in the. In the submission? [00:51:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the. I had proposed a series. Plus, it was. I didn't. I didn't see a way of how I had to do that. And at that point, I was kind of burned on it. I was kind of like, yeah, yeah, I think this one's gonna be mine again. And so. But the. The agent was able to sell it for. To audible, and so I, you know, she was able to do some stuff with it, but then she's like, you just have to write another book. Of course I do. Of course I do. So she suggested that I write for Desire. So Harlequin. Okay. [00:51:38] Speaker B: What year? Okay, so I read Desire. Probably majority of them, maybe all of them. I read before Harlequin purchased Silhouette, which is probably ages ago. I don't even know what year that would have been, but I read a ton of them back then. [00:51:53] Speaker A: It wasn't that long ago. It was probably back in 12. Like, it was in the 2000 and 20s, probably, or 2019. I can't remember exactly the year the first one came out. So what I did was I did a proposal for three books, and she sold the three books before I had written anything on them. And I'm like, okay, yeah, no, I can do this. I could totally do this. And they were. They were going to come out pretty close in time together maybe like six months apart or something. They were going to be fast releases. And so I wrote Book one and For Desire, and they. They bought it. But when Book two came out, I was already halfway through writing Book two. And it was the story of a. The whole thing was these three. It was like a dysfunctional family that's trying to. To go back home and rebuild a hotel and restaurant in this very swanky area, which in my mind, I picture as being like, Hearst Castle. Have you been to Hearst Castle? [00:53:03] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:53:05] Speaker A: Anyway, I made up this place called Plunder Cove as a nod to the Pirates. Anyway, the first one went, and then the second one I was halfway through, and that brother was going to be the owner of the restaurant, and he was going to hire a female chef. And part of the. It was part of the deal that the father wanted, you know, all the kids to get married, and he was gonna, like, force this son to get married. And so I was halfway through writing that, and guess what happened? Me too. Hit the editor. [00:53:42] Speaker B: Oh, I was gonna say the Editor. I was gonna say the editor left, because that's. That happened. [00:53:46] Speaker A: That happened. Me too. Hit. And all of a sudden it was like, well, she can't really. We don't really want her working for him. Can they be partners? Can they be this? Can they be that? We can't. We can't. We can't. And I was like, are you kidding me? I've written, like, almost this entire book, plus I've got a short deadline. And I was. You know, it was the craziest thing to try to, like, turn that book into something different. Something different and part. And I ended up keeping her as being his chef. But, you know. And actually, she had had a me too situation in her former job, so I kind of tied it in a little bit. But it was like, are you kidding me? I. Why does history keep coming along and messing with my fiction? Why does the real life keep messing with my fiction? With the Haiti and with the. [00:54:34] Speaker B: Can I even tell you? I'm writing a book now that takes place in the future. It's the first time I've ever done it. I mean, that's like a couple years ahead. So I can, you know, so I have flag time. And all I keep thinking is, what if something happens and this can't be. Yes, but. [00:54:50] Speaker A: Yeah, so on that. So on that. Oh, I forgot to tell you. On the Alaskan Coast Guard book, I submitted this. That second book, the second book in the series got a. Not the reader, but what's the new one called? The Vivian. Not an award, but was. Was up for that. So I'm like, well, I know that my writing is good because people are liking it and people are buying it. I just can't seem to hit that, you know, traditional publishing thing. And so it was nice to have those three Harlequin books. So I did in. In Desire. But then, of course, now Desire is no more. Right. [00:55:31] Speaker B: I know that it comes. It comes to. Been around a long time, but it. There's so many. Like, sometimes I talk to people about imprints, and they're like, what imprint? I'm like, oh, it was there and now it's gone. [00:55:43] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. [00:55:45] Speaker B: For 15 seconds. You know, I went for that publisher. It was there, but now they're gone. Sometimes I look them up just to make sure it really. [00:55:51] Speaker A: Did it really happened? Yes. [00:55:53] Speaker B: Did it really happen? But it's so. That's so true of romance and probably less true of some other genres. So what do you. Okay, what do you make of this? Like, if part of me thinks and this Is this is just not realistic. But part of me thinks if I had just started 10 years earlier, it may have been a smoother path or there would have been no path. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It could have been. It's one or the other. It's like, yay or nay. [00:56:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:21] Speaker B: But it's been. It feels so Wild west the last 15 years or so. And it's. [00:56:29] Speaker A: I think, you know, we're more than. [00:56:31] Speaker B: 15, I guess 18 now, something like that. [00:56:33] Speaker A: I think the digital publishing has done a lot of amazing, wonderful things. It's, you know, it's allowed me to get some of these books out that, that I think are really good and, and you know, a lot of other books that are really, really good to readers, like when Chicklet Was a thing and then it's not. Well, there's still people who like to read Chiclet, you know, so those people who are writing that they can continue to do that and, and have readers. The, the problem with it is that there are so many books now, it's hard to have anybody find you. [00:57:07] Speaker B: The noise. I, Yeah, I really, I think about that now especially I've been thinking about social media and how I probably need to cut back a lot, but I. The discoverability, like I remember at the beginning of like when we're like, we're talking about like Sam Hayne or. Anyway, at the beginning of this, the whole allure was, okay, it may be an ebook only, but you're going to be on a virtual bookshelf forever, as opposed to bookstores where you're in, you're out, depending on how popular. And there's so few people stay in and even like people who write lots of books that do well, can't be in. I mean, they just, they go out of print. [00:57:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:57:44] Speaker B: And so you. The whole sales pitch was you're never out of print. But now we're at a stage where nobody's ever out of print print. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Correct. You know what I mean? Yeah. So how, how do you wade in and find that one book that you're really trying to find when you're swimming in a sea of books? It's. It's tough. Yeah. So. So I, My, my NOW series is not a romance. It's a thrill thriller and it's. I'm doing Spy. [00:58:14] Speaker B: Wait, so is it pure or romantic suspense? [00:58:16] Speaker A: Well, it's. I work. I talk with my editor a lot about this and we decided that it's not romantic suspense because it doesn't have a happy ever after. [00:58:27] Speaker B: Okay. [00:58:29] Speaker A: And eventually it will. And there is definitely, you know, a couple involved in this, but it's also a whole team of agents and, and mindset in the future as well. It said in the near. It's near. Who knows how near future of, of after the second Civil War in the United States. And now we have a new country that is very militant and freedom. [00:58:59] Speaker B: Wait, is it a single country? [00:59:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:01] Speaker B: I am sorry, I just saw. I just saw a play where they had a second civil war, but it split into three. The west, the south and the Northeast. Yes. [00:59:08] Speaker A: So what happened was the. The west, the western state states are out of the. The Patriot Union is. The militant country is called the Patriot Union. And so the western states are still democratic and still very much the way that they were before. And then there's a coalition with Canada, the free western states. The free states and Mexico to try to. It's a cold war between this new Patriot Union and these, these other areas that's going on after the war is over. And it's, you know, low resources, food and things like that. And so. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. So this play I saw called Thirds I probably saw in September. I'm not very good with California, but it was a very similar thing because they. And the issue was the western states were kind of. I don't know, we're not gonna get into it. They thought they could come in and save the. Whatever the other part was, but the other people. There was some propaganda cut off. So they didn't. They knew they had no resources, but they thought everybody didn't have them as bad and they didn't realize how isolated they were. [01:00:17] Speaker A: It was like. [01:00:17] Speaker B: It's the first time at least that I don't read dystopian in the post apocalyptic. So I'm sure that those stories are out there more so than I. But it's the. It was the first time I sort of really thought about it and I was like, oh. I mean, I was like, I. I mean, it's not. I don't say it's not. I. [01:00:34] Speaker A: It's not that far of a reach. Right. That's what I want to say. [01:00:37] Speaker B: It doesn't seem as impossible as maybe it would have been like 85 or something. But now when I saw that play, I was like, not gonna happen. And then they had to talk back, the playwright and the director who I think are married. So I'm not. There was more of a collaboration than usual. And I was like, oh, that's not too far fetched there. [01:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:57] Speaker B: So what made You. Okay, I have two questions, but first, let's get. You know, you veered out of the lane. [01:01:04] Speaker A: Yes, I veered out of the lane. I have. I've now veered even more from just romantic suspense, a lot of adventure to like this is full on spy espionage, fun stuff. [01:01:16] Speaker B: What made you. Okay, before we get to. Oh, I have so many questions. So first. So are you planning to self publish this? [01:01:24] Speaker A: No. I have a publisher, so Tooley Tuli Publishing. [01:01:29] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:01:31] Speaker A: And. And when I pitched. When I pitched it at them, I was like, you know, I don't know what it is. I was back to my old. Like, I don't know what it is. It's. It's just a really important story that I want to tell. I mean it's just. I really love it. It's. And so I just kind of described it and then I. They're like, we want it. So I talked with my editor there and we. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out. She goes, what do you feel it is? I'm like, you know, I feel like if I say it's romance, I'm going to get killed. Like, I am going. My fans are going to come after me because there's not a happy ending in book one, there's not a happy ending in book two. We're gonna get to book five and then we're gonna know some stuff. But it's along the way. There's so much mystery. The. The female. The agent who is. It's really her story. She. A lot of stuff happened in the war. She has no memory of what happened or who she is. She doesn't even know she was a bad guy before. She's now a good guy. And it's just a lot of things she's trying to. Everybody's trying to find people and trying to get them out. [01:02:42] Speaker B: Okay, so then. Okay, so Tuli aside. Because they do. Okay. My knowledge of Tuli well is that they have. They veered because I know they do a lot of. [01:02:52] Speaker A: They do a lot and a lot more. [01:02:56] Speaker B: I don't call it sweet, but more harlequin types. Not harlequin. I'm so sorry. That's what I meant to say. Hallmark is what I meant to say. Romance. But okay. [01:03:05] Speaker A: All that they tried. They're now doing a mystery thriller line. So they were just starting that when I pitched my idea and. And of my series. And they're like, actually this will be perfect because we're really going into that and they. I think they have acquired a mystery publishing House too. So it's, they have a lot more now. [01:03:29] Speaker B: Okay, so then let me go back. Okay, so let's back to the lane. So what has possessed you to veer out of the lane? Because, Because I feel like just a few minutes ago we discussed stay in your lane. I know I, I clearly cannot stay in a lane. I, I, I, maybe I have two lanes. Let's. Well, I, probably more than two, but I, let's just. In practical terms, there's the romance women's fiction lane, which now is the one lane and which was actually two before. And then the thriller lane, which may have women's fiction elements. So, I mean, I, I know what I like to write. I just, you know, it needs, it needs to focus. But. Okay, but, but if the conventional wisdom. [01:04:11] Speaker A: Is. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Let'S say if Sharon Hamilton were on this call, she would say, write more. Seals. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Yes, yes, I know. [01:04:22] Speaker B: Harris were on this call or Cora on this call, they would all say, write more. So having spoken with all of them a lot over time, I mean, like, I've spent weekends with them at various, like, retreats or whatever. So all of that said, what has made you veer out of the lane? Like, in all seriousness, what, what are you doing? [01:04:48] Speaker A: Because, yeah, I, I'm all things with. [01:04:53] Speaker B: But I don't say, you know, better because that's not fair at all. I'm all about the lane. [01:04:57] Speaker A: But I think what it is that, what's going on. I think what it is is that this story has gripped me so hard that I could not, not write it. It was just like something that, you know, I, it was kind of like the, the show. Did you ever see the show, the Americans on tv? It was. [01:05:19] Speaker B: No, they were like Russians that were. [01:05:21] Speaker A: Embedded in the United States. Well, I love, I loved that so much that in that I was like, okay, so this is actually an American, but she's now embedded in this new patriot union and as a spy and working, you know, very, very, very dangerous place. And I just was like, yeah, I'm gonna write that. I just can't not write this story. And I'm so invested in it that I just, I, it's what I'm doing right now. And it could be more than likely I'll go back to writing more romantic suspension fence. Or at the same time doing this and something else, especially when I retire and I'll have more time, as she says, very hopefully. But this has to, this, this is, I feel like this is the real deal for me. I just. [01:06:15] Speaker B: So when is the first one Coming out. [01:06:17] Speaker A: So the first one is out, it's called the Package and the series is called the Infiltrix series. So the Package is out. And the second book, that's called the Surveillance comes out next month. I am writing book five as we speak. So. Yeah, and, and it's, it's, I, I don't know, it's just, it's just such an a, it's such a different world and it's a scary place, but it's also got so much hope and, and actually love for these characters, you know, that they are, they've, they've built this team in this cold war and they're doing these things because for freedom and all these other, you know, grand ideas and to find the people that are lost. So, and I, it's in the future and I get to invent all kinds of fun gadgets. I'm like, I wonder what they would have, I wonder if they needed to list, like, what would they do? And so that's why Fun too. [01:07:19] Speaker B: So, so, okay, World building is, I'm gonna say, probably my least favorite thing in on Earth, I think. I, I, no. So what you are, you enjoy. No. So are you enjoying the world building? Because I just, it. Oh my God. My, my son. So my son like reads this dystopian, all this stuff and he's like, would you ever write one of these books? And I was like, I have to write a book and invent a world that's like two jobs and I only want one job. [01:07:48] Speaker A: It is kind of fun. I'm a little like you. When I first write my first drafts, it's just a lot of people talking and I don't even know I have a rough idea where they are. But I don't, I don't really do description and all that stuff until much further into the, the building of the story itself. [01:08:07] Speaker B: So. [01:08:08] Speaker A: But then when I go back, I'll add things, I'll be like, okay, well, in the future they've got problems with food partially. That's because they have, you know, really strange weather things happening. So I have it rain and then I have it really baking hot. And I do different, different things with the weather and, you know, and the food and the issues that come up because of lacking lack of food and how all the people she's hanging out with are very, very rich. So they get whatever they want and she feels that, you know, so anyway, there's a lot of social and moral stuff going on in a very fast paced adventure. Each book is a mission that they're trying to complete. So that's fun. [01:08:50] Speaker B: So do you feel that? And. God, I never really talk about politics, but do you feel that either politics or. I don't. Not. Not the world we live in. I want to make it sound so dire, like. Like we're. We're at the apocalypse. But, like, do you think some of the elements of the world we live in have sort of infiltrated your. Your brain is so weird, the way I said. I mean, because I. I was just talking to a friend this morning because we're talking about. Oh, God, the price gouging after the fires with the rentals. And she was like, oh, I can't, like, listen to the news right now. And I said, that's fine. And she's usually the person who tells me what's going on because I don't listen to the news. And I thought, oh, now I got nobody. But I learned a lot because I was volunteering. But it's there. There's always. There's so much. Like, there's so much. And either you let it in or you don't let it in, or. I think it gets in anyway. I think there's, like, no closing the door and silencing it. But there's. There's a lot about weather. There's a lot about, I guess, the division that we have now. There's a lot of things going on that certainly get in there. Okay. Okay. I have like a thousand. Let me go back. Do you think that. Are you still itching to write romance? Because a lot of people. I will say there's a lot of authors I speak with who have shifted genres. I know. Because none of us can really stay in a lane. I think it's because we read widely and it's just hard. Who have shifted genres, don't necessarily want to write romance anymore. And I think I may be one of them. And so we talk about it. It's not. Actually. I don't read romance as much as I used to either. It's just. It has. Something has changed and it's not at the forefront. I don't know. Part of it's probably just age. I don't know. But do you think you'll go back? Are you still raring or, like, are you still itching to write it? Or. [01:10:51] Speaker A: You know, I. I think. What? Yeah, I think for me, it's. All my stories are going to have some sort of romance to them. Right. And when you look at most stories, there's some sort of romance to it. No matter what it is, right? [01:11:08] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:08] Speaker A: So, yes, a lot of my favorite books and movies and that kind of thing, they weren't necessarily romances, but there is a romance in it. So I just feel like whatever storytelling I'm gonna do, there's. There's going to. There. There will probably always be greater. Huge odds, lots of conflict, lot of danger, and. But that in the end, my themes are always, you know, love and always conquers all kind of things. So I don't know if I will specifically go back to writing, let's say, a Harlequin or anything else that's. That's just two people in a room that you love to write. But. But I. But I do firmly believe that everything that I write, there's always going to be some sort of love involved. So. [01:12:06] Speaker B: Okay, then, I guess. Okay, so I'll ask you this because what do you. What do you think will change in retirement? Because. So I stopped working outside, like, working, like, you know, driving in my car to go to a job in 2008, and now it's 25. So is that 17? Oh, my God, I feel so old. Anyway, it's 17 years. It feels like yesterday. Not really, but also kind of. And, well, actually, I wasn't worried about filling my day. I keep busy. But I did not work consistently for years. So, I mean, I've worked like two years here and two years there. So I obviously have many thoughts about how I can fill my day. What. What do you think it's going to be like? I guess. [01:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good question because I'm trying to envision it myself. But, you know, now I have a big job that's, you know, takes a lot of bandwidth during the day, after the day. And the only time that I can even eek any words out on the page are if I. When I'm driving to work, it takes me about 40, 45 minutes to get to work. I will dictate, you know, a scene, and it gives me, like, the. The skeleton, the scaffolding of what. What the scene's going to be like. And then at night, if I can, I'll work a little bit on it whenever I can. And mostly I work Saturdays, and I try to get as much done on Saturdays as I can. And so throughout the week, I try to do a little bit, A little bit, A little bit. And then Saturdays, I dedicate, you know, several hours. And so that'll change. I'm hoping that I will actually have several, you know, good chunks of the day that I can write instead of having to. To do, you know, and. And I'm. I'm constantly now in a panic of, like, I'm not going to get it done. You know, I'm on deadline. My fifth book is due at the end of April, and I am. I just got to like, 12, 000 words. And, you know, they're roughly 80 to, you know, 90,000. I'm feeling a little pain here. [01:14:22] Speaker B: I just. I can't. So make me feel uncomfortable. [01:14:26] Speaker A: Sorry. So that's kind of how I'm having to do it. And I'm. I'm just gonna be like, yeah, I won't have to do that. I'll have time during the day that I can actually sit down. [01:14:38] Speaker B: Do you think? Okay, I. The only thing that ever changed my writing was having a child. So I was writing before the. Before the child, before him, and after him. The structure of my day changed dramatically. And that was the hardest transition I ever had. But I. It feels like this might be easier because you would have less restrictions instead, instead of more. Like, I could write like, I, in my heyday, I could get up and like, do some yoga and then, like, make some breakfast and then, like, futz around and then write like, later and then, like, walk the dog. I mean, like, honestly, it was all very goosey, and that worked for me. And then I had a child and that. I didn't have that kind of time. All that time evaporated amazingly fast. What do you. Do you feel like you're going to have to have a structure? Are you going to, like, wait and see how it goes or what? Have a. More of a. I mean, I still have a child, but he's like 15. So he's, you know, he can get food himself. So it's the. But there's still structure around when to school start when to school, and, you know, all those things that sort of like, do provide some scaffolding for the day. And I do still write around some of those things. But the. Oh, the time is great. I don't know. Like, the time is great, but I don't know if you did the Becca Syme. If you took Becca Syme's class when. Back four, five, six years ago when everybody did. And so my number two would be discipline. So I now know that perhaps I can. I can have all day, and I know that I'll get it done. But I. From what I understand, other people who have retired, it is a little bit harder. [01:16:23] Speaker A: That's. That's one of the things I'm actually a little Bit worried about. About is that, you know, not having the discipline, the structure in the day that I'm gonna have to. I think I'm gonna have to make it. Like, I'm gonna have to make structure. Like, these are the times that I'm gonna write, and that's it. Because otherwise I will futz around. I will. I will go, you know, I love going out and going for walks. I, you know, would love to pick up yoga again, ride my bike. All those things, you know, and they're all great. [01:16:50] Speaker B: I don't. I can't. I can't advocate for all of them enough. But because the days are long. I mean, there's a lot of time in a day. And doing those things at least. Well, at least I leave the house. That's the other thing that my friends and I talk about that we find to be the hardest thing. I was talking to a writer yesterday, and she was like, I don't think I've left the house in four days. And I was like, yeah. I was like, well, I went. I said I had to drive my son to who knows where. I said. So I left for an hour and came back. But I hear a lot, and I know that. And that's like. I really try to structure outings, but not too much out, because then you come home and you're tired, and then I don't want to be bothered writing. But have you thought about, like, structure? Have you thought about. Is this a five book series total or you're just doing the. [01:17:41] Speaker A: So I'm contracted for five, but I'm hoping to have some discussions because I've got some ideas. So I. In my mind, I'm seeing it kind of as like. Like a series and that book five is going to end a season and we're going to have a lot of, like, all the. The questions that have been happening. We're going to wrap up a lot of those, and then something else is going to cause more issues and that. [01:18:12] Speaker B: We can go forward because your deadline is right before retirement. So then there. Then he was like, yes, correct, correct. [01:18:21] Speaker A: That's a good point. Yes, I know, I know I gotta figure all that out. But, yeah, that's. We'll see, Amy. I'll let you know. Are you looking. [01:18:33] Speaker B: Are you looking forward to retirement? I mean, I asked because this is. Oh, my God. As we age, poor people I know are making these decisions about stepping away from whatever the main thing is they do. And there are. Well, there are feelings. Well, entertainment people's. The stepping away is not Always voluntary. Yeah, but. So that's its own thing. But people have feelings about it because they want. It's not that you don't feel useful. I don't want to make it so dramatic. But that sense of purpose changes and you have an alternative one. I mean, I know other writers who write and have like a full time job, but I wonder. So you end up with like two, like two things. Like I have this A and B. And so with A going away, you're gonna have a lot of space. [01:19:25] Speaker A: Right. [01:19:26] Speaker B: For B. Do you feel that you might insert something else in there? Because I know people who are like, well now I'm going to volunteer 20 hours a week at X or Y or Z. I do. I have that friend and I think she's overloaded. But yeah, that's a different conversation. [01:19:39] Speaker A: Yeah. For first, one of the things that I definitely want to do that will take up some time is we've got to do some remodeling of our house. Our 1970s something house that has a lot of things that need to be upgraded. So we'll work on some things like that. My husband won't be retired yet, but he will be fairly soon afterwards. And then we'll. I actually worry more about like what he's going to do than what I'm going to do because I'm going to need to write, so he's going to need to go find something to do. But yeah, so I'm, I'm very excited about it. When you just coming to the idea of retirement, it's. There's all kinds of emotions that are going on because I'm going to miss the people I work with and I'm going to miss feeling, you know, I. Having this big job and having people, you know, like coming to me with their problems and having me help fix them and all that kind of stuff. I won't be having that anymore. But I will also probably hopefully sleep through the night, not have stress streams all the time. And you know, so there's. Yeah, I, it's, it's time and I'm, I'm relatively young for retiring, but I'm just, I'm ready. It's going to be good. I want to do some traveling and go visit family and that kind of stuff. So it's going to be good. [01:21:02] Speaker B: No, I will say this. I was thinking about it because I, I was traveling recently and I was. Oh, I've traveled a couple times this year. My, my son wants to see the world wonders. I don't know what they Are. So don't ask. But we went to Machu Picchu, which was a lot of steps, and then we were just at the Coliseum a couple weeks ago, and that was a lot of steps. And all I can think of is I need to get all of these steppy type things out of the way because it's getting harder while I'm young enough to do it. And then maybe when I do it later, I can just be on a cruise or something. I don't know. Probably not, but you know what I mean? Like, it's so the doing it youngish. Is I better? Because I do think, you know, especially from watching other people mobility, unless you work very, very hard on it, the mobility becomes an issue. And so I appreciate that. And I don't think we all need to work until we die. Like, I don't subscribe to that particular thing, but are you looking forward to. I guess. Do you think you'll have more space in your mind to think of creative pursuits? Because I think. [01:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:09] Speaker B: You know what I mean? Like, once you take the other part out, will the writing expand to fill. [01:22:15] Speaker A: Some of that question? I don't know. I guess we'll find out. I. I know that's true. [01:22:22] Speaker B: You can't know the answer to. [01:22:23] Speaker A: You know, a lot of times I feel like I get a lot of good ideas when I am not at work, when I'm out in nature, when I'm traveling, when, you know, when I'm kind of out of my space, things come to me. And so I'm assuming that that would happen. Like, I won't. I. Maybe I will have more space in my brain to come up with ideas. And that would be nice. That would be a nice plus. [01:22:52] Speaker B: Mm. And do you. Okay, so let me ask you what, other than this series, like, do you. Do you have like a grand. And I'm not. You don't have to have one because God knows I don't. But do you have some sort of grand writing career plan, like a way you would like to cap it off or what you. What's the big thing? And you don't maybe not necessarily have that that you want now as opposed to in the beginning. You know, in the beginning we want the call. So I mean. And you know, or we reward or we want to hit. Get letters or something like that. So all of that has gone right. Let's put that. [01:23:31] Speaker A: A lot of that has happened. [01:23:33] Speaker B: So then is there something Would be. [01:23:37] Speaker A: Just amazing if any of these stories were picked up in the form of any other sort of medium, like either, you know, a movie or Netflix or a play or anything like that. I think that would be a really, you know, I would love for something like that to happen, especially this, this series that I'm working on now because I think it has so much potential for people to really think. [01:24:06] Speaker B: Okay, so Trout, I want to thank you so, so much for taking the time to speak about this. How can I say this, this evolution of writing. Because it's something that I was talking to a writer who I think she sold her first book, couldn't sell another book, and was sort of, I don't wanna say despair. Cause that's like too big of a word, but sort of despairing about that state. And I was like, oh yeah. I was like, oh, honey, we've all been there. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's. I hear you, but keep writing, write the next book and then this era will pass and then you'll move on to the next thing. And she was deep in it. So, I mean, you know, that's fair. But I, I appreciate, this is one of the things I actually appreciate most about podcasts. I appreciate that we've all gone through those eras and are still here. Actually are still here. Like, are still writing and publishing in many different ways and putting ideas out many different ways. But the one setback is not the end, right? [01:25:09] Speaker A: Somebody had told me once, if you can stop writing, do, because it's just too hard, you know, but, and it. And so if you can do it, just quit. But most of us can't. So, you know, we're in it. We're in it for the long haul. And as long as you're loving your, you know, doing it, okay, that's too strong. Because you don't always love what you're doing when you're writing. There are times when I like hate it so bad, but I know in general I love it. So we keep going. [01:25:42] Speaker B: We do. So can we. Thank you so much for taking the time. [01:25:45] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Amy. I really enjoyed, enjoyed it. [01:25:50] Speaker B: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the Nicole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your E reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. My next book, His Last Mistress, is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. You can find me on TikTok at Social Thriller Author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at A Time to Thrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations. [01:27:03] Speaker A: It.