Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Happy New year.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome to 2025. I'm going to say if you had told me, well, 25 years ago that I'd be like well into a quarter century, I would have been surprised. Nor did I think I'd spend it living in Los Angeles. I don't even understand how this happens. This creeps up on you. Although as this comes out, I'm actually in Budapest and that's been 12 years. Thirteen, I guess.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Okay, so let me say that this month I have the great pleasure of speaking with author Laura Drake.
So Laura, I actually don't know that well.
She was in the Orange county chapter of Romance Writers of America back many, many years ago when we all used to go. She doesn't live here anymore in Southern Californ.
And I can't express enough how supportive it was to be in a group of women writers who were encouraging of other women pursuing a creative career.
I actually had just sent a text after the conversation with Laura to an author named Beth Yarnell, who comes up from time to time. And Beth, I met Beth, oh my God, in San Francisco years ago. And she's like, you gotta come down to occ.
[00:01:33] Speaker C: And I did. I don't know, I don't always listen.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: To what people will say or take their advice, but for some reason she made a compelling argument and I went down. And similar to the conversation I had last month with Linrae Harris, it was a chapter that had a lot of actively publishing authors who came to meetings every month. So they had current industry knowledge which they were more than willing to share with us. And it is, I don't know, priceless and valuable to have that kind of information, especially in publishing before the indie sort of revolution where publishers held their cards close to their chest so they could reel and deal each person pretty much down to as little as any person would accept for payment or deadlines. I mean, there's a lot of issues that come up and it was really good and it still is to have that sort of information. So often even now, you go back to a publisher or a sub rights person, like audio book people or foreign rights people, translations. There's a lot of other ways you can sell your book rights and you will come to them. And they're like, we can only pay you X. It's often like 3,000 or something. And you're like, well, everybody else got seven, so. So I know that you can pay seven.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: You don't have to quite say it that way, obviously.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: And what happens is that, you know, that their tolerance is higher and often then they will come back with a number that is far more acceptable. I mean, imagine somebody low balling you and then you coming back and being able to get double based on the fact that you know that other people have received that who are selling similarly. It is just, it really helps lift all boats because to be frank, publishers and other subrights people make quite a lot of money without creating the content. And as the people who create the art that they sell, we need to get as much for ourselves as we can because we're the little worker bees putting it out there.
So that chapter really sort of hit that home in many, many ways.
And even when indie started and just a whole bunch of interviewed a number of people from there. I think Deborah Holland as well was in that chapter. I don't know who else was on the podcast from there. But also I want to be, I'm actually very grateful, let me say that, of how candid Laura was in sharing parts of her story. It's just I, you know, I spend too much time on Instagram.
[00:04:16] Speaker C: I'm going to just be honest, like.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: I'm way too much. And every time like a post that Laura makes comes up, it really deeply resonates. And that's sort of the catalyst for me getting off my duff and reaching out to her. And I'm so grateful that she was willing to say yes.
All that said, coming out, oh my God, it's a few months away will be the release of His Last Mistress. You can pre order yours now and I'll be popping up all sorts of places to promote the book and I'll be sure to send those links in my author newsletter. So if you're not there now, you can go to amyaustin.com and hit the contact and sign up for Ebooks Buzz Ebooks, Buzz aimews, Amy News. Thanks a lot and without further ado, Laura Drake.
[00:05:25] Speaker C: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I am speaking with author Laura Drake. Hi.
[00:05:35] Speaker D: Hi Amy.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: How are you?
[00:05:39] Speaker D: I am living in Texas and living the dream.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: So I have about a thousand questions. So for the listeners. Laura. Well, let me say this. I met her at, I call it occ, the Orange County Chapter.
[00:05:56] Speaker D: Sorry.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: Orange County Chapter of the Romance Writers of America.
It's disaffiliated now. The whole RWA thing has changed dramatically. But back when I started, When I joined RWA in 2006, it was a lifeline into writing. Living life as a creative woman. Romance, so many things. And so I have a question for you. Well, first. Okay, my first question for you is about the motorcycles. How did you get into that?
[00:06:30] Speaker D: Oh my gosh, it's so crazy.
I am originally from Detroit.
I went to college in the Upper Peninsula, which right around now, I think I've seen pictures within the last week. They've got about four feet of snow.
[00:06:50] Speaker C: Oh my gosh. Sorry.
[00:06:51] Speaker D: Oh.
Walking to 8am Classes with the windchill would be 30 below.
And I was just done and my sister and I, we were watching the Rose bowl parade on what, New Year's. Right. Or January. Anyway, and she said, why don't we live there? And so we packed.
We packed up our two Pintos, cars, not horses, and drove across the United States. And we'd never been to California and settled there. And luckily, you know, somebody looks out for fools because it could have ended badly, but it didn't. It was wonderful. And I met. That was back when Southern California was the Garden of Eden. Oh my God, it was so beautiful.
And I met my husband there. He was in the aerospace field, but he was a die hard Texan. He grew up on a farm and he was only going to be there to make money until he could get back home in Texas, so. But he was a motorcycling fool. He loved it. And he was going through an awful divorce and so he asked me out on the very first date. All he did was talk about his divorce. And I'm like, I am so out of here.
But on my doorstep afterward, he goes, do you want to go for a motorcycle ride? And I went, you know what? On a motorcycle, I can't hear him talk about his divorce. So yeah, why not? And so I went on that date and it got better.
And we married and every one of our vacations happened on a motorcycle. We loved it.
[00:08:57] Speaker C: Oh my.
[00:08:59] Speaker D: Wait, so did you know, did you.
[00:09:01] Speaker C: Have a separate motorcycle?
[00:09:04] Speaker D: Well, now we do. Back then I rode behind him. I never wanted to learn my. I never wanted to learn ride my own. I was terrified. Okay, but you know, Southern California, to get anywhere really, you gotta go through a desert. And deserts get boring. It's just boring. So I would pop a prop, a paperback book on his back and read while we were riding and wait.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: Okay, okay, I'm sorry. I'm picturing this and I'm scared.
[00:09:37] Speaker D: But it worked.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: Okay. Can I ask you a question though? Don't you have to hold on to the person riding so that you Don't. I don't. I don't. Actually, I. Okay. I've been on the back of a motorcycle about 14 seconds in my life, and I decided that I would like to live. So if you.
But if you're not grasping the person in front of you for dear life, how do you stay on? You're not tied to.
[00:10:02] Speaker D: Okay, no, not tied to him, but it had what you call a trip trunk on the back, so I had something I could lean against. It wasn't like the void back behind me. So.
[00:10:16] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:10:16] Speaker D: It was more like an easy chair, only dangerous. So it was fun. I mean, we. So we would put 10,000 miles a year on. On a motorcycle. We took all our vacations. I got to know the western United States. I've seen some amazing places.
And we were going. You know where Kernville is?
[00:10:42] Speaker C: No.
[00:10:43] Speaker D: It's sent up by Bakersfield.
[00:10:47] Speaker C: Okay, okay, okay.
[00:10:47] Speaker D: Yes, Beautiful. You go in a canyon with a river and. Anyway, we went through this little small town and a dog ran in front of our bike, and thank God it turned. It ran the other way. But I got an idea in my head for a book, and it would not leave me alone. I'm sure you almost.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: Unfortunately, yeah.
[00:11:16] Speaker D: Yeah.
Because authors are smart. I'm not smart enough to write a book. I just love to read them, you know?
So I figured, okay, I will write this book, and then I have a delete key. I can just delete it and nobody will know what an idiot I am. Well, of course, I got done writing it, and I. My goal was I wanted to hold a book with my name on it. So I joined OCCRWA and went from there. And eventually I learned to ride my own motorcycle. I've got over 100,000 miles on mine.
So it's been an amazing life.
[00:12:05] Speaker C: Okay, so what. So tell me about this first. Oh, my God. I think my first book that was published did have a dog in the road, but that's a different conversation. It also happened to me, only it was on the 10 freeway, so less interesting. But it was on the 10 freeway one day, I think, going to work when I was still working as an attorney, and a dog ran into the road, and the entire. You know, the traffic's not going that fast to begin with, but it went from like 4 miles an hour to a dead stop. And everybody ran out in the road to save this dog. And that's fine. The dog got saved. But that was the opening scene of the.
I think the first or second book. It's the first book I know, I got published that I wrote.
[00:12:50] Speaker D: Isn't that wild?
[00:12:52] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
[00:12:56] Speaker D: You never know. You never know what's going to catch your mind. Right. And doesn't.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: Right. It was just it.
Okay. Yeah, that's okay. I did not know the story about you. So my question is, so what? Did that first book get published or did it live? Does it live under a bed somewhere?
[00:13:16] Speaker D: Oh, my gosh. Oh, that's a story. Okay. So that was the first book I wrote, and it sucked, frankly, in the beginning. And I got into OCCRWA and I found a crit group, and they made me realize I had a cardboard hero and all the other zillions of things that were wrong with the book. So I got done and I edited as well as I could at the time. And so I submitted it to agents because I wanted to get it published. And back when I started, that was just about the only way you could do it. It was the only way when I started. And so, of course, they all turned me down. But in the meantime, I'd started my next book and I finished that one. And lather, rinse, repeat. Right? I did it again.
The third book.
I'd find I'd learned a lot and my group had helped a lot, and they felt this third book was special. And I did, too. I thought that it was good enough to get published. So again, I sent out to agents, got a bunch of requests, but ultimately everybody turned me down. I had, I think, one full manuscript still out, but I was reaching the end, and I had. I was a treasurer for OCCRWA at the time, and they had an editor coming in to speak, and they said, you know what? You work near the airport. Why don't you pick her up? I went, oh, score, Right? Oh, yeah, I will. Well, you know, the Orange Crush on a Friday afternoon, and.
[00:15:15] Speaker C: Oh, God, okay, sorry.
[00:15:17] Speaker D: Yeah. An oil tanker had overturned on top of the normal Friday traffic. So this woman is stuck in the car with me for two hours.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Oh, my God.
[00:15:30] Speaker D: And I know I was sorry for her. I had a lot to talk about. You know, we talked. Actually, she was from Michigan, so we talked about that, and we talked about writing in the industry and all the things. And then finally she says, well, what do you write? And I told. In fact, I pitched my book. Basically. She says, well, that sounds interesting. Why don't you send me the first, you know, three chapters and a synopsis and a query letter. I said, oh, okay. And I reached in the back seat and I handed it to her.
I Had no pride. I wanted to sell this book. So she looked a little surprised, but she said, okay, I'll read it in the. On the plane on the way home, and I'll. I'll talk to you on Monday. Well, she called me on Monday and she goes, you know, the first thing you need to do is get an agent.
Yeah, no kidding. I had 417 rejections before she introduced me to who is still my agent. And I sold my first book.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Sweet.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: What book was.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: What is the title of this book? I'm trying to think.
[00:16:51] Speaker D: The Sweet Spot. It won best first book in the RITA competition that year. The year it came out, 2014.
So, yeah.
Yeah. The bottom line is if you keep learning and you don't give up, you have to get there eventually.
I just figured it was science. It had to happen eventually, and thank God it did.
But then that first book, the one with the dog in it, the Sweet Spot, sold to Grand Central Forever Line. It's their romance line.
And my agent took that first book and sold it to Harlequin's Super Romance. It's a defunct line now, but at the time.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: Yeah, but I've read it. I mean. Yes.
[00:17:45] Speaker D: Yeah.
And I ended up selling four books to them and then went on with the cowboy romances.
So that's. That got me started. But OCC was definitely important in that journey.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: Okay, so, okay, the Sweet Spot cover, I remember because I remember the red thing. The red. Not the red thing. I'm sorry. The title and your name are in a red block on the front.
[00:18:12] Speaker D: That's good memory.
[00:18:15] Speaker C: I don't remember. I don't remember anything else, though, about that. So I'm sorry. That I remember because I'm sure at a meeting you stood up or somebody stood. I mean, I'm sure there was celebration around it. Yeah, I just. Or maybe did you hand out copies? Because people often did that. I just.
I feel like that. I feel like it may.
[00:18:36] Speaker D: Yeah, I know.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: But now I feel like there may be one around here. But. Okay, that's a different. But that would be a little search.
Okay, so. So. Oh, wait. So that was a single title. So what, your first sale was a single title?
[00:18:49] Speaker D: Yes. Yep.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Wow. How did you feel about that?
[00:18:54] Speaker D: Huge, actually. It sold as a three book deal, so I ended up. I ended up selling everything that I had written up to that point.
So that was great. I already had my second book written.
[00:19:10] Speaker C: Yes. I had a similar story because I was still chugging along. I sold the third book I wrote. It took me that long. So Many words to get to figure it out. But by that time I had gone back and fixed one of the others and then I sold that one right after.
[00:19:27] Speaker D: Oh yeah. And isn't it funny that nobody wants you until somebody does and then everybody wants everything. Which is wonderful. I'm not complaining.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: But yeah, no, but I do. I will say this. I think that what I. Let me say this. The beauty of OCC and RWA at that time is that I'm not sure if somebody hadn't said, I know you're sending out these query letters and you're getting interested or whatever. You know how it is. It's, you know, ebbs and flows up and down. If no one had said to me, well, while you're doing that, write a second book, I might be in a different position. But the thing that I really appreciate about that is that people, you know, they always have to like keep on writing. Like they, you know, they had all these messages that you needed to keep writing like the next thing and if I had done it additionally. So I knew a lot of traditional authors, I still know them, but when I like from 20 something years ago, they were, I don't want to say they were trying to just flog that one book. And the what the advice I give to people, even if they want to be, you know, write traditional non genre books or literary fiction is still to keep writing because, because if when they want you, they're going to want more. And so then the people I know who didn't write a next book, tearing their hair out with these massive debits.
[00:20:48] Speaker D: Exactly.
[00:20:49] Speaker C: And massive.
[00:20:50] Speaker D: You know that, that was a wonderful thing about RWA and I. And I'm so sad what happened to it because most writing organizations, whatever genre, they require you to have already sold a book. Whether you sell, publish, you've sold it to a whoever and so it's exclusive. Whereas RWA was the opposite. You know, you haven't written anything. Come on in, we're going to tell you about it. They had classes, they had, oh, and the published authors who would give up their time to talk to a newbie. It just, I wouldn't be an author if it weren't for that. So neither would I.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: That's the thing, I can't, when I, when people ask me about this now especially because the world is obviously very different. I can't reiterate like I can't explain how grateful I am. Like you would sit in the room, you remember they do the published offer thing in the morning like in that little Side room. And so I would sit in that room. And so like the amount of both encouragement and knowledge is incalculable. And so I'll tell you the reason I joined. I don't know if you know this. So I met. So in 2006 I went to the first. It was my first RWA conference. I don't know, I probably, I maybe had joined before that, but it was in San Francisco so it was a low bar to entry, you know, to fly the one hour. And because of the most. A lot of the people came from the east coast, they were jet lagged and asleep or I don't know what they were doing. And the only people awake was me and Beth Yarnout.
[00:22:30] Speaker D: Oh my.
[00:22:33] Speaker C: And she was like, you should join occ. And I'm like, well, I live in la. And she was like, you should join. You know. And she was, I mean I'm still friends with this day, but it was like the most amazing conversation. We're calling her kids. The kids were little back then. And I was like, okay, you know, I'll drive down. And it changed my life. So I don't, I can't like ever like thank people enough because she was like, we have a bunch of published authors, we do this whole like thing every, you know, once a month come down. And I did. And it changed my life in ways that I didn't anticipate at all at the time.
[00:23:06] Speaker D: Absolutely. Me too.
Wonderful.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: I mean it's just amazing.
Okay, so can I ask you about Super Romance? Because I really miss.
Okay, I missed some of the harlequin lines. I understand that things has changed, but I used to read, well Blaze and Temptation. But I also used to read Super Romance because it was a longer book.
[00:23:25] Speaker D: Right.
[00:23:25] Speaker C: And it had more complex story so you know, like presents or whatever. It's like 50, maybe 55 on a good day. Yes, but super romance were longer. Blazers were like 60. But super romance were even longer. And so I really enjoyed. I mean I can see the yellow band in my. I could see the covers in my head.
I really. It's so weird. So I really enjoyed them. What? How were you able.
Okay, most people I know who write for lines are writing for that line. But you had written those books like independent of harlequin structure. And they're very specific per line.
[00:24:04] Speaker D: So that was a wonderful thing about super romance.
[00:24:10] Speaker C: It, it.
[00:24:11] Speaker D: They wanted deeper subjects, more like not women's fiction. It was still romance. But it was okay to throw some women fiction in as well. And I kind of naturally wrote the Trench in between those two things. And I was amazed it they didn't have the harlequin structure that most of the lines had.
They.
[00:24:44] Speaker C: They would explain maybe why I liked it.
[00:24:46] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. They allowed. So she didn't have to be 30.
[00:24:50] Speaker C: To 35, 20 to 25, and live in a city or live in a town. Like, you know, each one had those things and they, you know, had this kind of job.
[00:24:57] Speaker D: Yes. Ah, that's why. That's why I loved it. And it was such a shame the line went out just after my. Or maybe it was right about the time my fourth book with them was being published.
So it's a shame because I loved writing for them.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: So did you not have to do a substantial edits or rewrites, I mean, to make it to fit within a structure? Not for just.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Just.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: No, making the book better.
[00:25:32] Speaker D: In fact, I had a wonderful editor and all she did basically was line edit it. I was shocked. I expected, you know, huge long editorial letters and I did not get that at all.
Yeah, no, it was wonderful.
[00:25:47] Speaker C: Sounds like a great experience. Like from. For that line. So you didn't start with one of the lines. That was really. Because I know a couple of writers who started with much more structured lines who did move to super romance later. I know too. And that for them it was like taking off the shackles. You know what I mean? They could write more of the backstory that they wanted, but they had to work their way to that from the much more structured lines.
[00:26:13] Speaker D: Yes, yes. No, I was a gift in a way.
It was. I really enjoyed it. And what I did was wrote four books in the same small town.
So it made it. It gave me on my own structure, you know, because the world was already built then.
And yes, many of the characters had cameos in the other books. So it made it a little bit easier as a series to write.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Again, less structure, way to start. And so that is so. Oh, my God, you're telling me the best story. Because that's. That's such a brilliant way to start. Because. So I'll tell you this. So right now I'm writing a book. It's my 30th book. I have feelings about it. So I'm writing a book.
[00:27:04] Speaker D: 30.
[00:27:05] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's a standalone, so I have a. I'm writing my first standalone book. It's a psychological thriller. That's not the part. The part is that I've been writing series so long that building a book from the ground up is more work than I remember. So every Character. Like, I just sat down last night and they're having this group scene, and I was like, okay, she has these friends, and I only know one of them really well. And now I have to sit down and think about it. Whereas with this series, people came and went, but I already knew them all, and I already knew their backstory from, like, 2014.
[00:27:37] Speaker D: Yes. And you know, so you know what? It's really interesting, Amy, because I, I, I now write women's fiction exclusively. I'm not writing romance. I may get back to it sometime. But let's face it, I'm 70 years old and I'm doing all of it from memory. Okay, so I'm better off in women's fiction. But I had somewhat the same experience going to women's fiction. At first I started writing that book and going, yay, no rules. And I'm thinking, oh, I'm free. But then I got like a third of the way in and went, oh, God, there's no rules.
I didn't realize how much I leaned on that structure. As tired as I was of tropes, it does give you a signpost to write to. You know what I mean?
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:28:40] Speaker D: So that first book that was strictly women's fiction was tough, but now I'm off and running, and I love it.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Okay, so I'll ask you. Okay, so I will tell you this. My absolute favorite genre to both write and read is women's fiction. If you banned all other genres in my life, that is actually all I would write and read.
All that said, it doesn't make me enough money, so I don't write it.
And I wrote, I don't know, five of them. That'd be my best guess. Maybe five or six. Six. I think there's six. I wrote six. Loved it. Loved it. I can't tell you how much I love, like, A Woman's Journey. So what? All that said I can't. Oh, it's just. It's like my. I'm happy. So. But what made you move into that genre? Because it's not. Not for the faint of heart. I'll just say that.
[00:29:33] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, by the way, Amy, I want to tell you and your listeners, if you're missing RWA and you write anything like women's fiction, when RWA went more romance and stopped the whole reading, everything with romantic elements, I and a couple of other people started Women's Fiction Writers Association.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: You know Maggie, of course.
[00:30:12] Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes. She is our corporate attorney.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:30:18] Speaker D: We just celebrated our 10th year with a in person conference in Chicago. And the nice thing about it is it's the same atmosphere of joining and belonging and people giving and all that. So I just wanted to tell you that in case you want to write some more women's fiction or even if you don't, we don't turn anybody away because they don't write it.
[00:30:44] Speaker C: Right.
I may come back to it. Who knows? That's a different. I'll have to. I'm thinking, you know, as I was telling you before we were recording, like, you know, my son's going to be out of high school in 2025. And so I have. I'll have a different way I'll be living after that, and I may have more freedom to do that kind of thing. But it's, It's.
[00:31:03] Speaker D: It's.
[00:31:04] Speaker C: Trust me, the thought has not gone away. And so in the book I'm writing, they have too many women's fiction elements. And I. All I can think of every day is like, oh, my God, I got to ratchet up the tension.
[00:31:12] Speaker D: Like, you know what? It's funny because I am writing.
I certainly didn't start out to write a suspense novel, but it turns out I am. And I have that same problem is that it still has women's fiction elements, but keeping the story moving and the tension high and. And yet going deep into it's tough.
[00:31:40] Speaker C: I am 40,000 words in, and I might not have hair at the end. So I don't have an answer for you.
[00:31:46] Speaker D: It's very.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: It's different. That's all I'm going to say. My head is spinning.
So what kind of books are your favorite women's fiction then? Because they're. Well, no, they're not two types. Okay. Lately, when I've been reading women's fiction, a lot of it's. I'm returning to my hometown and reckoning with my family. Or. Well, it's usually my family or some secret. It's family or a secret or some combination of both. And then from the 80s, I remember when I used to read them a lot, it was a lot of people dying, their mother dying. They would go back to the town their mother was dying. I don't think we do that so much anymore.
[00:32:22] Speaker D: Right.
[00:32:22] Speaker C: I kind of remember what was in the middle. That's a no. The middle was a lot of divorce. I remember that. So it was mother dying. Then it was, I'm getting a divorce and starting a new life. And then it was returning to my hometown and secrets. But what said, I remember the waves. I don't know what's current right now. What is it that draws you to telling those kinds of stories?
[00:32:42] Speaker D: Well, I think my author byline is Ordinary Women on the Edge of Extraordinary Change.
And what draws me to women's fiction is I've been bad places in my life, places I would not recommend going. But I went there and I. I didn't know how I was going to get out of it.
I told you, I'm an open book. I was a battered wife way many years ago.
Ancient history, but I. I had to go through that to find myself.
And at times, you can't.
When you're in bad places, you don't know there is a way through it, but when you look back, it's all clear. So what I wanted to do is write books to women that may be in that bad place so they realize there can be a way out, even if they don't see it right now, that there's hope.
So my women's fiction is mostly women in bad situations. They've made horrible mistakes they don't think they can come back from, or.
Or they're. They're forced into positions where, you know, bad things happen.
And so, yeah, and there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of forgiveness. And I think the biggest part of forgiveness is learning to forgive yourself.
So that tends to be, oh, that's.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Why I'm in therapy, so that. I don't know.
[00:34:48] Speaker D: I don't know. I can help you with that. But.
[00:34:51] Speaker C: No, no, but I. I think what my therapist said to me is because I. This is the thing I wrestle with all the time. She's like, but you don't know what you don't know. And you can't blame yourself in the past for not knowing what you didn't know. And I'm only 50. 50 on board with that, to be honest. Like, I feel like there's enough information in the world, and it's a little better today. Obviously, I grew up in the time with no Internet and whatnot, but we had card catalogs. There's enough information in the world that I feel like I should have figured it out, but that's not how it works.
[00:35:23] Speaker D: Well, Amy, if you look at. But if you look at, you can't look at it with your eyes now. You know what I mean?
And I understand, Amy. It took me years, I mean, decades to come to grips with that and to learn to love that stupid girl that I was.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: Huh?
[00:35:53] Speaker D: I mean, I was naive and I was innocent, and I don't mean Stupid, as in unable to learn. I just mean I hadn't had the opportunity to learn.
Ignorant is more like it, I guess.
And there were good things about her. And I don't want those things to die. And if I don't accept who she. She is, I will lose them.
Think about it. Might be something that helps.
[00:36:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm still. I'll be on that roller coaster for a good minute.
So then. So then let me ask you. So then what is it? Because this is the thing that made me, like, think about you. Like, maybe reach out to you. So I spend far too much time on Instagram.
I.
I was telling my son today we were. I was driving him to school and what. So I post on Instagram, probably too much. But when you're posting now, the post takes so long to upload, and I don't really truly think it takes a long time to upload. I think they're, like, keeping you there. So you're scrolling while you're waiting for the bar to go across, right?
[00:37:02] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:37:03] Speaker C: So tick tock's the same. I'm convinced that, like, that 90s, the 0 to 100, really can't take that long. All that said, one of the things that I find compelling about your particular Instagram feed is that you have a lot of these quotes, one of which actually I kept. Well, I took them off my monitor recently because there's too much paper around my desk. But you have a lot of quotes that I have come across in the last years that I have found inspiring. And I was wondering, not wondering, it sort of piqued my interest because I'm thinking, well, why is she in that headspace? Or how did you get to be in that headspace? Where those kinds of things that you post resonate with you. I see. They resonate with you.
[00:37:51] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course they catch my eye because they touch something in me. And just like my books, I post them because I know there are people out there that it will touch as well.
And I think, Amy, there's more of them than you realize.
I don't think anybody gets through this life unscathed.
And pick your poison. Right. I mean, it's easier to see with other people than with ourselves, but we can see damaged people all around us.
I'm convinced that people who are mean, and we see it all the time on social media. Right. I think that's pain. I think it's pain that they haven't resolved.
[00:38:43] Speaker C: But I just came, so I'm gonna be honest. Like, I literally just came to this, like, maybe a week ago. So I will say this. I love to learn. I learn about anything. The only thing I've never pursued in my life is psychology. There's probably a reason for that, but that's. That's.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:58] Speaker C: So.
But I recently have been reading. I've been thinking about that because I was watching. Oh, my God. So over the summer, I read a book about reality television's influence on life. And as I was reading the book, I realized I had never heard of 95% of the reality shows. I don't know what world I live in, but I don't live in that world. So I was so. Because I'm writing contemporaneously for the first time in a while and outside of my little universe of people who don't ever go to the bathroom or watch tv.
[00:39:30] Speaker D: Right.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: You know what I mean? So I've had to sort of. So I've been consuming, like, some reality TV so I can have, like, some current references in my books. And I don't sound like a grandma. And I was watching.
I watched like a couple of episodes of everything. So, like, I watched a couple of episodes of Hoarders and a couple episodes of, like, my 600 pound life and a couple episodes of I don't know what. But what I'm starting to realize is that the thing that we find entertaining maybe is people's trauma. And it's just people express their trauma in different ways, whether they hoard stuff or they eat stuff or they have bad relationships or they're throwing things on TV or whatever it is. I think it's always of expressing trauma. And I was like, oh. And then I was talking to somebody about addiction. And it's not a thing I think about too often. It's not my. It's not been one of my life problems. And I was like, thinking about addiction. I was like, so that's trauma, too. So basically, people get traumatized and how they manage it is, you know, a whole bunch of different ways. But that is the fundamental base of all of it.
[00:40:33] Speaker D: Exactly.
[00:40:35] Speaker C: Yeah. And then I have to think about whether trauma for entertainment is a thing. But that's a philosophical question. But I didn't. I can see it so much better now. So I was watching some dating show the other day. I don't even know which one. And I was like, oh, this is just people's trauma on display. I'm like, this person has this problem and this person has this problem and this person has this problem. And it's a little easier to Spot. And I just wish I'd had that framework, I don't know, 40 years ago.
[00:41:03] Speaker D: Yes. Oh, so many things. So many things. I wish that. But I wouldn't be who I am today if I had avoided any of that, you know, all of that went into who I am today. And I am able to say that I like who I am today.
I am not everybody's cup of tea. I don't care about how I look. I am not a feminine woman. I don't own a pair of heels. I don't wear makeup anymore. I go out and fish two days a week. But you know what? I'm loving life. And to me, that's what it's all about. That's what success is. It isn't how big a house you have or what car you drive or any of those things that are so on display everywhere, but especially in Southern California, that, to me, success is being happy. Whatever it is that floats your boat, oh, get to it as soon as you can, because that's when life gets good.
Man, you've got me philosophical today.
[00:42:26] Speaker C: Okay, but it's based on your Instagram, so.
Okay, so then let me say this.
[00:42:33] Speaker D: What.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: Okay, how. What's the age difference between you and your sister?
[00:42:40] Speaker D: Oh, my sister. Well, she died at 32.
She was two years younger than I was, and that was a real dividing line in my life.
She was a person to date that I was the closest to on the planet because we survived the trauma of childhood together, and that bonded us.
And so that's. That's another thing that shows up in my. Quite a few of my books is. Is sisters and, you know, families, relationships.
[00:43:23] Speaker C: That's. I didn't. So I'm. I'm an only child, so I survived the trauma of my childhood alone.
[00:43:28] Speaker D: No, I. You're brave.
[00:43:32] Speaker C: We often. Well, I'll say this. I, for the most part, and I only have one child, and my parents are only children, so it's not, you know, that particular.
For the most part, I'm fairly grateful for it because I have found that for people who grew up similar to me, either one of two things happened. They bonded with their siblings or they did not. And then that was a source of friction that goes on for a long time, and so forever. Since it could go either way. Yeah, I know. So since it can go either way, part of me, I love the idea of being able to bond over that, but that may not have necessarily happened, especially in the kind of family I had. So I think I'm somewhat grateful that I Don't. I didn't have to play that lottery.
[00:44:24] Speaker D: Sure. And I believe there's a reason. I believe there's a reason why you didn't have to.
I don't know what that is, but that wasn't your thing, so. Yeah. And I also believe that you make your own family, and I have done that throughout my life.
I. I don't see that blood can be any thicker than the love you have for a friend or, you know, nobody.
[00:45:00] Speaker C: Yeah, but that's a hard. I feel like in this particular culture. And it's true, actually, in other cultures. I mean, I travel quite a bit. That is a hard one thing, because there's a very big push to accept your family, no matter how badly they treat you. And I had a conversation like, this is such a random conversation with somebody one day, and he said to me, unless your parents, like, either molested you or sold you into sex labor, I don't know why he uses examples. This is not me. Then there's no reason to either have estranged it or be angry about the past. And I thought. I don't think that that's. That's my line in the sand.
But I was like, that's not my particular line. And that's the different person, different from a different conversation. But I was.
[00:45:45] Speaker D: There you go. He's telling you more about him than about you.
[00:45:49] Speaker C: Yes. So that was like. It was one of those conversations where I was like, you know? And you're like, yeah, got it. Okay, good.
[00:45:59] Speaker D: There you go.
[00:46:02] Speaker C: We were having an argument about growing up with alcoholic mothers. Anyway, different conversations.
[00:46:07] Speaker D: My father was.
Yeah, I think that's a pretty common one, too.
[00:46:13] Speaker C: Yeah. But we were talking about estrangement, actually, and he was saying that he had not spoken to his mother at some point in the past. We're all old, so, you know, for like, six or seven years. But what he said was when my not speaking to her didn't stop her drinking. And I was like, oh, that's not the reason that you do that.
And I was like, I could see how that didn't work because you were hoping that your absence would change her behavior. And that's not how that works to my.
[00:46:40] Speaker D: Not at all.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: No. But I. That's where he was. So then we had the whole conversation about that.
[00:46:46] Speaker D: And you may want to give him your therapist's number.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Well, he started therapy during COVID And what he said to me, this is so crazy. Yeah, well. But then I said, how's it going? And he said, I don't have anything to talk to my therapist about. And I was like, okay.
But I was like, can I call them? Because I got something to say. But yeah, but I didn't do that.
That's my inner thoughts that I keep to myself.
[00:47:15] Speaker D: But, yeah, what.
[00:47:17] Speaker C: But a therapist. I was doing something yesterday, like, some online. I don't even know what. I do a lot of online stuff. And some therapist said yesterday that she would say of her particular clients, I know she was in their 50s, so I don't know how long she's been practicing. She said 10% of the people are not receptive at all. And I was like, what? I. Like the thought had not occurred to me. She's like, some people come in and they know they have a problem, but they're not receptive to either talking about it or changing. But they feel like going to therapy is being in a room. It's efficient. And I had not considered that as a patient archetype.
[00:47:56] Speaker D: Huh. Well, yeah, I know.
You got to be ready, right? Maybe they're. You know, I was telling my granddaughter, in fact, the other day, she. She wants to change something. She's very shy, wants to change that about herself. And I said, well, you know, and I gave her some hints about things she could do, and I could tell she wasn't gonna do them. And I said, well, you know, do realize that nobody changes unless you are so uncomfortable. It's more comfortable to be afraid and change than it is to sit where you are.
So if you're not ready, it's okay. Trust me, you will get there. You may not want to, but you will get there.
[00:48:49] Speaker C: Yes, but I hadn't considered.
[00:48:51] Speaker D: It's scary and it's hard and it's unknown. And even that's something that our childhoods taught us, Right? Even pain of where you are is better than what you don't know.
[00:49:06] Speaker C: No. The fear of the unknown is what, in any particular situation. I think about this all the time. The fear of the unknown is what keeps me in a place. And sometimes I'm like, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday, so am I going to take the leap? You know, and.
And that's part. It works out, but there's no guarantee, you know what I'm saying?
[00:49:27] Speaker D: Oh, no, absolutely not.
And that's something that honestly, motorcycling taught me.
It's dangerous, you something even, no fault of your own. You can be in the role wrong place in the wrong time, and there's not a thing you can do about it. And you have to accept that.
And learning to ride my own motorcycle freed me. Because I'll tell you, Amy, the first year and a half, I was white knuckle terrified the whole time. Every time I got on that bike, it was a. It was an act of absolute terror.
But I knew I wanted to do it, and I. And once I learned and once I surmounted that, it was like I never thought I could do this. I never thought I could write a book if it turns out I could do those two things.
What else have I always said no to that I could do if I tried it?
And that changed my life because I think we say no to so much.
And we're. We're. Yes, you're you. It may be terrible, it may turn out catastrophic, but all the catastrophes I've had in my life so far, far I've learned something from something important.
So from then on, I just threw myself at life. I'm not afraid anymore.
I'm not there yet.
Well, honey, I'm 70, okay?
Yeah. Do you know anybody who wouldn't say the same thing? Whatever their life was, whatever their trauma was, whatever they've grown through, everybody was, oh, my God, if you'd have told me that I'd be 70 in Texas, loving everything about my life, I would have told you were nuts.
I didn't like I expected, but boy, go ahead.
[00:51:50] Speaker C: Yeah. I will say sometimes I think, because if you had asked me when I was like, I don't know, 7, 8, 9, 10, probably through 13, what I wanted to do, I'd be like, if I could just be a writer, it would be the best thing ever. And so sometimes I think if I went and told my 10 year old self that I'd written books, she would be so floored.
[00:52:09] Speaker D: Absolutely.
See, I didn't even have the guts to aspire to that. I was thought I was too dumb to do that.
So yeah, give yourself credit and love that 10 year old kid.
Love the innocence and the excitement and the. And the aspirations of that kid. Isn't that cool?
[00:52:33] Speaker C: Yes, because I remember sitting at the typewriter, oh my God, I'm dating myself. I remember sitting at the typewriter thinking, oh my God, if I could just write a book. And I used to type anyway. This is so old, so I can see then. What kinds of things did you read when you were younger and when you were reading on the back of this motorcycle, which I'm still scared of, did you read Romance? Well, come on now, did you read Romance then?
[00:52:57] Speaker D: Yes, I read everything. I read Solz Nitson, I read Herman Woock, I read Arthur Haley. I mean, I read. I would bump into people in high school walking between classes, reading. I mean, I read everything. And I loved romance. Loved it. Because of the happy ending.
That there could be a happy ending.
Yeah, it's very. Especially when you're young and awkward and.
And don't know who you are. That. That's. It's wonderful.
[00:53:44] Speaker C: That's so interesting because I'm going to say this. This is so bizarre to say this. I never thought about why I found romance compelling. If you were to ask me, because what you're saying now, maybe it resonates because if you were to ask me, I would have said I thought that it was compelling because of the kind of writing it is. So the writing is tight and has to be, you know, has to pull you through.
[00:54:02] Speaker D: Yep, yep.
[00:54:04] Speaker C: But. But there may be more to it. I'd have to actually think about that because it was the one genre, it was the one that sucked me in the most. So I read everything. I mean, I've read lots of everything. And the other thing I do like is thrillers, but I think that's about justice.
I know that part. Like if people get justice, I feel vindicated when I close the book. But I hate so that I got. But the romance, I never. I always just thought it was. The writing was so compelling.
[00:54:30] Speaker D: It is. But to me, what held me was the hope is that they're hopeful, you know, there's going to be an hea at the end.
I loved it.
[00:54:46] Speaker C: Yes. And so I didn't get that with women's fiction. So that space, when I read mainly romance and women's fiction above other things, I would alternate because the women's fiction did not always have a happy ending. It had a right. How can I. The woman at the center of the story had usually some kind of revelation or growth, but that was not always. You know what I mean? It's not happy always.
[00:55:07] Speaker D: Right.
[00:55:08] Speaker C: But when you alternate with romance, you could get some of those elements of growth, but also a happy ending, you know?
[00:55:16] Speaker D: And it's funny, I thought when I started, I'd be in a perfect place because I tend to write in the trench between the two. I thought, oh, yeah, there's a huge onius because you've got the romance readers and you also have the women's fiction readers. But you know what? It turned out not to be true.
[00:55:37] Speaker C: So that's why I don't write anymore.
[00:55:39] Speaker D: Yeah, romance readers will read women's fiction.
Most women's fiction readers won't read Romance. No, I don't get why. But I found it to be true.
[00:55:54] Speaker C: So, you know that category that they used to have this read is the novel with strong romantic elements.
That is. That is the sweet spot for me as a reader, but I don't think that's the sweet spot for selling books.
[00:56:09] Speaker D: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. And my second series, the second three books with Grand Central, they said, my. My editor said, okay, the romance genre is moving more towards ruins women's fiction. That's why we want more of your books. I said, awesome, good. I can do what I want. And I turned in the book and she goes, yeah, well, where are the tropes? It was like, wait a minute.
Yeah, yeah, there's a line in the middle that. And there is a difference between the two.
And it's. It's hard to. It's not hard to blend them, but it's hard to find an audience that wants them blended.
[00:57:03] Speaker C: But I can't figure out why because I feel like a lot of like TV drama exists in that space.
[00:57:13] Speaker D: You're absolutely right.
[00:57:15] Speaker C: Right. So I get. So I feel like there is an audience who likes that kind of story, but apparently not in the medium that I wanted it.
[00:57:24] Speaker D: Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at. Look at Outlander.
[00:57:29] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:57:29] Speaker D: Yes. Obviously it's a very strong romance, but it's also a women's fiction.
[00:57:37] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:57:37] Speaker D: So I. I agree, absolutely agree with you, but readers are different than the video media. I guess.
[00:57:49] Speaker C: I. I think so because I enjoy books more. I don't enjoy visual media as much like I. I don't watch movies because I don't think two hours is sufficient amount to tell a good story for the most part.
[00:58:01] Speaker D: You're right.
[00:58:02] Speaker C: And I. I do love a TV drama, but I don't always have that kind of time to dedicate. You know what I mean? I don't have hours on edge in my first as I feel to do that. I'd rather do something else. So I don't know. But I. I have what I have wished for. And I've talked to. Actually Maggie and I have talked about this, especially around the time of the founding of the women's fiction. The thing you were talking about. I was. She was. Because we were talking about women's fiction in indie has not been in a huge growth spot. And in my head I would love it to be so. But me too. I can't control the world and I don't know. We talked. We talked a lot about this. Why that doesn't Exist. And I still don't know.
[00:58:44] Speaker D: I. You know what?
I don't either. And I honestly think I agree with you on two hour movies. I very seldom watch them. But now with all the Netflix and Paramount, plus all these sagas they've got that are seasons long, I mean, they're awesome because then they can get into the depth of character. My God. Handmaid's Tale. Oh, wow.
[00:59:16] Speaker C: So I don't disagree, but it's taken.
Okay. I grew up in the era where Love Boat was the thing on tv, you know what I mean? So it is taken a long time to get to the space where people are finally telling the kinds of stories I would like to consume. But I feel like books in that way have not yet reached that point. And I don't know in our current marketplace where that's going to come. And I do want.
[00:59:45] Speaker D: I don't either, Amy, because I don't see the future. And if I had some control, things would be different. But our readers are dying off, unfortunately.
[00:59:59] Speaker C: That's true. I really.
[01:00:01] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. For the most part, kids aren't reading. And I get it. You know, they've got games and they've got videos and they've got. Oh, my God. All the things, you know, And I get it. But I. I don't know, I just hope that there may be a reveal revival of that somewhere down the road. Because, you know, if you love a story, I won't watch Harry Potter because. Or the Lord of the Rings because those characters are so firm in my mind and the story and the. And the setting. I don't want a movie to ruin it.
[01:00:48] Speaker C: I don't. Yes. I assume kids don't.
[01:00:51] Speaker D: Kids don't have that. Do you remember when you were first learning to read? Part of it. Of course. There's the whole sentence structure and, you know, see Jane run and all that. But then right there. It takes a while to be able to build the world in your brain.
You know what I mean? To treat. Yes.
[01:01:14] Speaker C: I remember very distinctly. Yeah.
[01:01:16] Speaker D: Ink on a page to a scene in your head. And that takes time and it takes concentration. And I don't think kids today are willing to put that in.
[01:01:30] Speaker C: So you think that skill builds over time? I hadn't thought about that. I. Okay. Because I remember. Yeah.
Especially when we. I graduated from picture books to chapter books, and I remember chapter books and I remember looking. I remember my mother was like taking the library and she's like, you really gotta make that change. I remember that. Going to the Brooklyn Public Library. What all that I remember and I remember coming home and I just couldn't figure out how that was going to work. Like, I remember thinking about it, you know, on the drive and I couldn't figure out how it was going to work. And obviously I made that leap. But now that you pointed out, that was a.
I remember thinking, how is it going to work? And I don't know, like there. And that was actually the hard part. That's the thing. I actually thank librarians for so much because the, you know, the choices are vast. The library. And it wasn't until, like, I met a librarian who I. And I. She was like, what kind of stories do you like? And I don't know what, what my little child self said, but she was able to suggest books that were able to be compelling enough that I was willing to create that world in my head.
[01:02:31] Speaker D: Yes, yes.
[01:02:32] Speaker C: Because I remember being young thinking I had no imagination. Yeah.
[01:02:36] Speaker D: Yes, that. I guess that's the word for it. It's imagination. You know, I remember I was reading a book and they're taught, you know, this, whoever the character was lived in a house. And I thought, how do you picture this house? Because they don't give you all the details. Right. You don't know where the bedroom is compared to the kitchen and all that. And I didn't want to use my house as an example. That's too close to home. Home, literally. So I used a neighbor's house and put this all happening in her house. And you know, when I think about it, I still do that today.
[01:03:20] Speaker C: Oh, that is so interesting. I think.
[01:03:24] Speaker D: What do you do? Do you. Do you picture some. Do you put it together yourself? Totally. Or do you use something you already know?
[01:03:32] Speaker C: Well, of course I use something I don't know. So if they say it's a Victorian house, I have like, I have a picture of Victorian house in my head. If they say it's like a split level ranch, I have that. If they say it's a Spanish house, I have that. They say it's a New York City apartment, I have that. Or a Paris apartment, I have that. LA is a little harder for me because that's. I have to think more about it. And it changes so much. But I do have those base levels. So if they just say to me, modern house, 50s house, mid century, whatever it is, then I slot it in. And this. I was thinking about this because I dream about houses. They're not that many. You know, it's like I got 10, right?
[01:04:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:04:08] Speaker C: Not 100, maybe 10.
[01:04:10] Speaker D: This is an Interesting conversation. I've never discussed stuff like this with people, so I'm really enjoying this.
[01:04:18] Speaker C: It's what I think about silently at home all the time when I should be writing a book. Okay, but I have told you for an hour, so I will ask you this one last question because you can answer this as a person has written. Well, I'll ask you first. How many books have you written? I do ask people that.
[01:04:34] Speaker D: 15.
[01:04:35] Speaker C: Nobody.
[01:04:35] Speaker D: 15 now.
[01:04:37] Speaker C: Okay, looking back, thinking back, I guess, about the books you've written, do you think there are predominant themes that you see now that you did not necessarily see when you start. Started?
[01:04:50] Speaker D: Yes. In fact, I had a crick group member tell me what the theme of a book was, because I had no idea I wrote the whole thing. And, and then I went, oh my God, yes. And I knew right where it came from. Right. It's all, it's all about the, the important things in her life, right? Trauma and fun and the best parts of life and the worst. You know, there we pull all that into our books and I'm not even sure how it all happens.
I believe that our brains, when we start to write, even the first time, they already know how to do this, but they're not talking and we have to figure out the heart way.
Same with plots. I don't plot. I know a friend of mine, Dorinda Jones, you know, she wrote all the 12th grade or 12th grave series. She writes a 40 page outline before she writes a word.
So basically all she has to do is go back and fill in the snappy dialogue that horrifies me.
I, I don't know. I don't plot at all. I know the character and I know her problem when I start and I know that where she's going to end up. But anything else, I don't know is that. How do you. Do you plot?
[01:06:32] Speaker C: No, I write exactly the same way, but that's why I'm 40,000 words in and like standing well, you know what I mean? I'm looking, I'm. I clean the back steps. Like that's where that got. So when I, when I'm like cleaning randomly, like, you know, I bought a new mat for the back door. I was cleaning the back steps and then I was like, what about the front steps? You know, but whatever. So I, you know, could go out the front. So I.
[01:06:55] Speaker D: So the middle is brutal, right?
[01:06:59] Speaker C: Horrible. Like, this is the. Oh, so I understand. Okay, so this is the thing. During COVID my child was at home. And that's the first time I Think he ever saw me all day. You know what I mean? Children, they leave in there. You're out of your head.
[01:07:12] Speaker D: And I think anymore, Right?
[01:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And it was the first time he saw me all day, and it was the first time anybody ever pointed out the writing process. He was like, oh, you're stuck. And I was like, how do you know? He's like, because you're, like, looking at the baseboards or I'm folding laundry. Whatever it was I would do, but. And he was like. He said, all I hear all day is frantic typing for two minutes and then, like, a half an hour of nothing. And I hadn't thought about it. It's awful. Like, it's awful. You know, here I play the middle.
[01:07:42] Speaker D: I call the middle the pit of despair.
It's where I've gotten. I. I love where I've come so far, and I know where I'm going, but I don't know. There's no way to get there.
[01:07:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I started it. Yeah. I, I. So this book is going to be three parts, because that's how I want to do it. Like, literally, it has part one, part two, part three. I finished part one. We're all set up. Part two is called the Lie. I know what the lie is. I know how she's gonna react. I'm really stuck. Like, I literally. She was at a taco stand, and I was like, okay, well, you know what?
I got other things. I started. I finished knitting some. I've knit a pair of socks. Like, literally, other things have happened. And I started a new pair of socks yesterday. I just. That is the hardest part. And I know, okay, the only thing I know is from doing it that it can work. But what I hate is that I can't see it. Like, I'm sitting here now, and it's as if there's an opaque cloud in my face. And I know that on the other end is a finished book. And I. But I can't tell you how the heck she's gonna get there. And it's just driving me crazy. So I will say, this is the funniest thing.
[01:08:54] Speaker D: And then, of course, the next book, you forget that you're going to do that again. And thank God I have friends. I call, you know, after I make myself suffer for about a week, then I call them and go, I am so stuck. They go, yeah, I know. You always are at this point, what's going on? And I give them the situation. They go, oh, okay, well, what if she. What about. What if this happened? I'm like, oh my God, you're brilliant. You know? And that solves. So call somebody, Amy. Don't suffer.
I might.
[01:09:33] Speaker C: But I will say this. So. So we're driving today and with the way when I plug in the phone in the car, all your information comes up on the car. So while I'm driving, a reminder pops up and my son looks and he goes, you have a Dolby theater tour. He's like, what are you doing? And I was like, oh, the other night, my character, it was like midnight. This is so bad. She was in the back of a theater. She's. So I needed a 3,000 seat theater in LA. There's only like two or three and one is the Dolby and that's close enough. You know what I mean? And I was in the Dolby Theater prepping for this show.
And so I'm online apparently at midnight, and it turns out you can get a Dolby theater backstage. Backstage tour.
Wow. And I was like. So apparently I bought tickets, which I forgot about until I got this reminder in the car that tomorrow at who knows, 10:00am, noon, whatever, I am supposed to drive to Hollywood and be in the back of the.
[01:10:26] Speaker D: Oh, how very cool that is, though.
You know what though, Isn't it neat places that. And things that you find out from writing. You never would have gone there otherwise, right?
[01:10:40] Speaker C: I didn't know they had one until I googled it at night. And apparently the problem with the phone is that you can pay for things by clicking.
[01:10:49] Speaker D: At midnight anymore.
[01:10:51] Speaker C: I will. It was not the best.
We'll see. I mean, I don't know.
I don't know if that's going to help with the book, but it certainly will be distracting.
[01:11:04] Speaker D: It may solve a problem. You didn't even. You saw no way out. You never know.
[01:11:10] Speaker C: I know, that's the thing. So I will get in my car, apparently, and be up in Hollywood next to me and the tourists and the people standing out.
[01:11:19] Speaker D: In the meantime, you have an excuse not to be riding, right?
[01:11:23] Speaker C: Absolutely. Because I'll be busy there for a couple of hours. No. So, yes, I'm. So I don't plot. And this is the kinds of. These are the kinds of things I apparently get into when I'm trying to figure it out. I don't. The only thing age and time has taught me is that it's okay not to fly. Because I used to have a lot of anxiety about in the beginning because you write that first book and that's like semi autobiographical. Then you write the next book and you're like, it's probably not that deep. And so after the third one, I was like, this is actually a Tessa Dare. She was. She was the one who said I should write some more series, whatever, one of those meetings. And I was like, okay, that solves the problem of what to write next. But I did have those moments where the. Every book was such anxiety and I thought every book was the end of my career or maybe I should find something else to do. And I was like, putting a resume together and contemplating all sorts of ways I could do something different. And it's only in the last few years I realized this is the process. I don't like the middle. It'll be done at some point. I'm not. There's no guarantee. And that's okay.
[01:12:24] Speaker D: Yeah, Yeah. I have the same problem. It cracks me up. You talk to other authors and they. They're like, oh, my God, I have all these ideas and I don't know which one to start. Or I start one and then I go to. Because I'm in love with these. And I'm like, really? I have one idea at a time. And as I get towards the end of writing a book, I'm terrified there's not going to be another idea now. Thank God, there always has been. But there's no. Like you said, there's no guarantee.
But I'm no, I better with that about just letting it be.
Yeah.
[01:13:05] Speaker C: But it's hard because all I can think of is I literally am walking around my house going, so this is the last one, huh?
[01:13:13] Speaker D: Who am I if I'm not an author anymore? Yeah, exactly.
[01:13:17] Speaker C: Don't know the question.
[01:13:19] Speaker D: I know scary stuff. That unknown stuff again, Right?
[01:13:26] Speaker C: So much, so much. I was like. So I'm like, should I book a trip? Like, I have all these thoughts about how I could solve that, but I'll figure that I. I'm not going to worry about it so much, but it's still a niggling doubt in the back of my head that I don't quite enjoy.
[01:13:42] Speaker D: You know what, though? You've got the middle to worry about. Put the others aside for now.
[01:13:47] Speaker C: I know.
So true. So true. So I'll ask you this. My last question. What are you reading now?
[01:13:56] Speaker D: Oh, what am.
I just cannot. I just finished one.
I've been, you know, again, eclectic. I'm. I read a lot of women's fiction. Have you ever read Charles Martin?
[01:14:14] Speaker C: No.
[01:14:15] Speaker D: It's a guy who writes women's fiction.
It. He is amazing. You gotta read him.
But I finished a hard Science fiction book a while ago. I don't, I don't get it. I'm not sure I understood half of what I read, but. And then I read Wuthering Heights because I want to go back and pick up the classics that I missed. If you haven't read that one, don't bother.
[01:14:47] Speaker C: Not since I read it once in college, you know.
[01:14:50] Speaker D: Oh, it was, it was dismal. Yeah, no, I'm not big on that. But I am going back. I'm going to read, you know, every three months or so. Read a classic just. And I'm a huge horror fan.
[01:15:07] Speaker C: Oh no.
[01:15:08] Speaker D: Oh, I love horror. So I pick one of those up every once in a while too. I just read a little bit of everything.
[01:15:18] Speaker C: So I don't read horror. I don't read fantasy and science fiction. I haven't read in years. But I'm going to ask you this about horror. How. Okay, I. The last book, horror book I read, I was 10 pages in and they were about to enter the basement with some dog and I was out.
So.
Because I think I was like, this is the end of this. What. What am I doing? How do you. Well, and also I tried watching my griffin keep telling the name of this, the zombie show they filmed in Georgia and I watched one episode and had nightmares for two weeks. So how. So I don't. I can't consume it without poor sleep.
[01:16:00] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:16:01] Speaker C: Don't do entertain. Yeah. It enters my conscience too deeply.
[01:16:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[01:16:05] Speaker C: Because it's always so you're like. Okay. For the most part I feel like mostly bad things are not going to happen. I don't. You know what I mean? Not horror type bad things.
[01:16:14] Speaker D: Right.
[01:16:15] Speaker C: So when to read the. That the idea that you could slip. Your life could slip into that is so horrifying that I can't handle it. How do you handle it? Like, I don't.
[01:16:26] Speaker D: It's okay. So it's kind of. You're gonna. This is really a weird reference. It's kind of like romance in that you read it and nothing that bad has ever happened to you. So in a way it's living vicariously.
It's that. Okay, so I've had some crappy things in my life, but a zombie has never eaten my brains.
I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know how to explain it. But again, usually for the hero, they work out okay in the end. Right.
The zombies don't get the last guy.
[01:17:14] Speaker C: That's true.
[01:17:15] Speaker D: Stephen King is one of. Is my very favorite because he depicts children.
And the innocence of being a child versus evil, whatever it is. A mad dog or a vampire or a crazy father or whoever it is, the evil, right. And the child in his innocence wins.
So in a bizarre way, it's like romance. I know it's going to end up okay. It's the real life stuff that I can't watch, like true crime because they didn't live through it.
[01:18:08] Speaker C: That's true.
[01:18:10] Speaker D: You see what I'm saying? It's weird, but horror to me is. It's made up. It's okay.
But true crime is truly terrifying.
[01:18:22] Speaker C: That's true. I watched one. So, you know, Beth, we're talking about back to back. Beth is really into true crime and she sent me some link and she was like, watch this. I don't know, I got maybe 10 minutes in and I was like, you know what? No, I don't need this. Like, I don't. I'm good. Yeah, I'm good.
[01:18:37] Speaker D: Maybe that's a lot works because there's no happy ending.
[01:18:43] Speaker C: No.
[01:18:44] Speaker D: And I don't want to know that that could happen to me.
You know, whatever's in the basement doesn't scare me as much as what people can do. You know what I mean?
[01:18:57] Speaker C: That is. Yes. And that's my. I struggle. This is the thing actually I struggle with the most, is man's inhumanity to man. Because every day I wake up and I feel as if we. There's enough human progress in civilization that we don't have to behave that way. And every day I'm disappointed and it's horrible. Like a. It's like, it's.
[01:19:19] Speaker D: It's.
It's everybody working out their pain.
I. I think the worst despot in the world believes he's a hero.
Yes, Everybody. Nobody sees themselves as the villain.
Except maybe Hannibal Lecter. And he didn't care. But, you know, everybody thinks that, hey, I'm a good person.
So it's just. Yeah, it's their understanding of the world from where the. Wherever they came from. And I'm not saying that makes it okay. It's horrific.
[01:20:04] Speaker C: No, it doesn't. Explain.
[01:20:05] Speaker D: I think it's all a reflection of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it just makes me feel better about it. I don't know why. Because I sure can't believe.
[01:20:19] Speaker C: No, but because the alternative is true. Is believing that people are just truly evil for evil's sake. And where do we go with that?
[01:20:25] Speaker D: Yeah, I don't believe that. I think that everybody thinks that they're good. Basically, even the Bad people.
[01:20:37] Speaker C: That, unfortunately, has been my experience. And it's interesting because I. The thing I think I dislike about that most is that people who think they're good, and I'm like, but look at the pain you're causing the people around you. And that's the hard part. I think I struggle with.
[01:20:51] Speaker D: Right, right. And I think it's due to the pain that they have inside that they're not dealing with.
[01:20:58] Speaker C: No, no, not that.
[01:21:00] Speaker D: That. I think it. Okay.
[01:21:03] Speaker C: No. I think the only thing I wish for people, and I don't actually think you could do this, is. I don't want to say therapy for all, but I wish that there was a way for people to be more introspective at a younger age before they harden into unkind or abusive or whatever people.
[01:21:20] Speaker D: Yeah. I think that's why would be great.
[01:21:24] Speaker C: And I don't know a way to achieve that.
[01:21:28] Speaker D: No, I think everybody has to work it out on their own. And. And I don't think everybody's gonna get to that point in this lifetime.
[01:21:39] Speaker C: No. And that's. Yeah. And that's. I think the greatest level of acceptance I've had to have recently is that some people are not going to work it out and they're just gonna plow through life until they die the way they are. And they're okay with it, even if. Even if I'm not. And I'm like.
[01:21:57] Speaker D: Well, some, I think are so unaware. They don't even know any of that. Amy. I don't think that they think that every day is a new day and I'm just going to get up and do my thing and this is life. And how sad is that?
[01:22:11] Speaker C: Yeah. So we. We like my friends. I recently been talking about that. That lack of awareness, and I think we can't. I can't decide. The lack of awareness is awful. It's awful because no matter what, they don't. It's not that they don't care. They're unaware. And there's no way to get to that unawareness. But I call them chaos monsters. I'm like, but that doesn't mean you're not running around causing chaos, Right? I wish. And there's no I don't.
[01:22:38] Speaker D: Sad part. Yes. Because they don't.
[01:22:40] Speaker C: Yes.
[01:22:40] Speaker D: They don't hurt themselves. They hurt other. Well, a lot of them do. You know, addiction and all that. But a lot of them hurt other people, too. My God, child molesters. Let's not even go.
[01:22:52] Speaker C: No, I was thinking about that yesterday. I mean, it's the kind of Thing, I think. No. And it's. It's so. Oh, because somebody. I was listening to a podcast and the guy was talking about him being. Him and his first cousin or something being molested by another cousin. And he said that when he was in addiction recovery, because that's where his trauma went in some place in Texas for a month. The counselor, he had said that for every person that is molested, that they. He said basically every pedophile who is active molest, like 20 to 25 people. And I was like, oh, I had never thought of it. And so he said him and his cousin are the only two people in the family they know who were hurt by this particular family member. But he now thinks that there's probably 20 other. Whether it's in their family or not, they have a big family, 20 other people out there who have also suffered pain at the hands of this person who's alive, well and kicking. And I was like. When he said that, I'd never heard that before and I don't know what to do with it.
[01:23:52] Speaker D: I think, you know, you and I are talking very openly and honestly, a lot of people don't. I think it happens a whole lot more.
I can't venture a guess as to the percentage, but I. I think it's huge.
[01:24:19] Speaker C: Still root out trauma at the start because so many people are traumatized in so many ways, so young. And I wish there were a way to protect people from. And I don't think that's possible. So I realized I've been thinking about this a lot. I don't think it's possible, but it's deeply unfortunate.
[01:24:34] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, yeah, Yeah, I agree.
[01:24:40] Speaker C: So I want to thank you for having this talk with me.
I didn't see it going there, actually.
[01:24:47] Speaker D: I was thinking about, wow, what a great conversation we're having.
[01:24:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So the reason, the thing that struck me is the quote that you had, like, people who don't get love, I forget from a spoon turn.
[01:25:00] Speaker D: If you're not fed off a silver spoon, you learn to lick it off knives or something like that. Yeah, right.
[01:25:07] Speaker C: Yes. And I have that. I had it on my desktop computer for weeks and weeks. Years. Excuse me, Years. And when you posted it, I was like, I printed that exact thing out and it was on the computer for years. And I was like, we gotta talk, so.
[01:25:22] Speaker D: Oh, absolutely.
[01:25:25] Speaker C: But I want to thank you so, so much for taking the time out to have a conversation that you didn't see coming.
[01:25:32] Speaker D: Oh, I've really enjoyed this and I.
[01:25:36] Speaker C: Really, really appreciate it. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And now I'm going to read the other books because I've only read I read the sweet spot and maybe one super romance. But now I'm gonna go. Now I'm gonna have a little delve into your world.
[01:25:50] Speaker D: Oh yeah, you need to read some of my women's fiction.
[01:25:53] Speaker C: Yes, I think I am. I was gonna do it before this but then I was in the middle of a book and you know, cleaning my back stuff.
[01:25:59] Speaker D: Oh yeah.
[01:25:59] Speaker C: But I'm definitely gonna do that and share your books with my listeners readers. There's a huge crossover. But thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.
[01:26:12] Speaker D: Oh thank you Amy. I've enjoyed the heck out of it.
[01:26:19] Speaker B: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host author, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the Nicole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook.
My next book, His Last Mistress is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook@legal thrillerauthor. You can find me on TikTok at Social Thriller Author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at a time Tothrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great convers.
