Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. It's December.
This is such a fun interview.
This month I am speaking with New York Times and USA Today bestselling author Lynn Ray Harris. So here we go again. So I met Lynn on one of these beach retreats, oh, maybe like, ooh, six or seven years ago with the pandemic. It's always so hard. I feel like My son was 6 or 7, which would be, ooh, seven or eight years ago.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. So the thing that is super interesting.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: About Lynn is that she wrote Harlequin Presents, which she'll talk about here. The Harlequin Presents line, well, as far as we, the rest of us knew, it paid the most, it had the most international exposure, sold a ton, was translated into many languages, and also was very specifically formulae. So if you have, like, heard those tropes about Harlequin or romances with, like, chics and being in really, quote unquote, exotic international locations, then most likely those were from the Presents line.
In my Harlequin dreams, I never wanted to write for presents. Honestly, I don't know if I could do it. But they, the writers who wrote for Presents, who later went indie, a lot of them did very well. And I think, at least in my estimation, one of the reasons is, is that they learn to write a very tight, compelling narrative in a short word count. And let me tell you, as a person who has too long of a word count, it is not easy.
So we talk a lot about that.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: And also.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: She does horses, so.
Oh, my God. When I was younger, there were girls, we call them horse girls, and they brought their horses to camp, to college many places. And we talk about it, but she started early. And I don't think you ever sort of leave. That love of horses, I don't know, was never my thing. I mean, I remember, like, the Black Beauty and like, whatever that, like the Elizabeth Taylor thing and all of the books and movies about women, girls and horses. And it just, I don't know, passed me by. It wasn't the thing I wanted. I never got up and said I wanted a pony. I don't even know what I wanted at that age. But it wasn't a horse or pony.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: So we'll see.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: I'm super excited. And I posted on social media that I got finally the advanced review copies for His Last Mistress. As you all know, I pushed back the publication date to April 24, 2025. The book is done and I have copies. If the actually, it closed Yesterday, I had a giveaway for newsletter subscribers. I gave away five, and it closed on November 30th. So if you missed out on that, keep your eyes peeled. I think the book should be up on NetGalley as well as other opportunities for advanced copies. I love to read and get early reviews so that other readers can find the book. I'm super excited about it coming out.
I love the book.
I don't know if it's the best I've ever written. I'm not going to say that, but it's the best I've written lately.
So keep your eyes peeled for that.
Keep opening those newsletters so you can get the information about the podcast, about the new release, and whatever else I'm working on. So with that, have a wonderful holiday season and without further ado, Lynn Ray Harris.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Hi, and welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the absolute joy and pleasure of speaking with USA Today and New York Times bestseller Lynra Harris.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Hi.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Hi. It's so good to hear from you. How are you?
[00:05:07] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. It's good to be here. Pretty good. Pretty good.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: It's.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: It's been a busy year, but what day is it? I don't know.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: I know. And it's almost over. November is actually my favorite month because it's my birthday.
[00:05:21] Speaker C: Oh, well, happy birthday.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Age. But it's age. Age.
So I'm going to ask you. This is the weirdest first question, but how did you get into horseback riding?
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Oh, well, I mean, that's one of those things that you tend to be born wanting to do, like little girls especially, either love horses or don't care. And I just remember from a very early age just wanting a pony. And my mother had the same affliction. So, you know, it kind of kind of worked out. I got a pony when I was five, I think, and I wanted a pony and dreamt of a pony. And ponies are evil creatures, by the way, but they're like Chihuahuas. The smaller the horse, the more evil it is.
But yeah, I rode as a kid and then rode throughout my teen years and showed and everything. And then, you know, adulthood happens and getting married and all that. And I didn't get back to it until 10 years ago. My mom had started writing again like most moms. I, you know, she gave me all of the lessons. I got all of the paid lessons while she was the supportive person, so she wanted to take lessons herself. And about 10 years ago, she found a barn and she started taking lessons, and she talked me into going out and just to watch. And it was a month later, I had a horse and I was riding again.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: That's a short window.
[00:06:56] Speaker C: You're like, yeah. My husband's head was spinning, let me tell you. Because I told him, I'm like, oh, yeah, been there, done that, got the T shirt. Never doing that again. It's a sinkhole of money. You know, the whole thing, Right? And, yeah, months later, I had a horse.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: That is so funny. So I will say this, and I don't mean this a pejorative way, but when I was growing up, we called them horse girls, and there were. There were those horse girls. So where I went to, like, overnight camp, they had a separate camp for horse girls. So we were in, I guess, regular camp, and then they had ranch camp. So you could bring your horse.
Where I went to college, you could also bring your horse. So, I mean, I've met many people who could bring their horse places. And this is only in the Northeast. I have no idea if you can bring your horse places in California. But people, like, came to college with a horse trailer.
[00:07:48] Speaker C: That's awesome.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: So I get it. And I've known them, but I didn't spend a lot of time with them because they were out with their horse and brushing their horse, caring for their horse, driving to the. Wherever the stables were, especially in New York, because it's not, you know, in the city. And doing the horse thing. And you saw them with their cute boots.
Yep.
So, I mean, I. I've met many horse people. I just. As an adult, fewer people are into it. Although, ironically, I think we have more means to do the horse thing than earlier.
[00:08:21] Speaker C: Oh, for sure. I mean, it is. It does cost money, you know, because, I mean, it's an animal that you have to pay to take care of and every day. And if you show, that adds an extra expense. But the peace of mind that I get is so incredibly worth it. Not to mention the exercise, because, I mean, you can join a gym and not go. You know, you don't feel guilty, but this is an animal that you bond with. You know, it's like. It's like having your dog or your cat. I mean, you bond. Not quite the same way, but they're excited to see you, and, you know, you feel guilty. I feel guilty if I don't go. And the other thing about it is, when I'm riding, I can't think about anything else but the ride. Because the kind of horse I ride, I mean, I ride A show horse. And you gotta be on your game, you know, you gotta be thinking your mind doesn't wander because you might find yourself on the ground.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:18] Speaker C: I can think of nothing else but the ride. And that's kind of a nice place to be, because where else can you think about nothing except what you're doing?
[00:09:26] Speaker B: No. So that's. I have found. So as I get older, so I have. I always had a number of hobbies. And the two that I've gotten back into, because I was. Over the summer, I think I was talking to Maggie Mar, an author that we both know, and I was like, I used to be able to turn my mind off, and I can't really do it anymore. And she's like, what are the things you used to do? And I said, there are two. I said, well, the one I still do. I bike almost every day, and that's. I can't think about anything else because I can't be hit by other people. You know what I mean? I gotta survive that, and I gotta be very careful, especially as I get older. But the other thing I do, my other hobby is, like, photography. And so I've recently gotten back into it and, like, took all the equipment out, sold some, you know, did all that. And it's the only thing that requires, like, so much attention that I can't focus on the rapid things that are going through my mind. And then I also have found that when I come back from it, I don't want to say I'm inspired. I don't wanna make it sound that deep. But when I come back from either biking or photography or something like that, I. My brain is sort of cleared out and I have more. The greater ability to write the next chapter.
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's like you need that brain break. And you get it when you're doing something else that you're so immersed in that maybe your mind is working on the story way in the background and you don't even realize it, you know?
[00:10:49] Speaker B: And I think that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: So when you're done, you're like, okay, I feel refreshed. I'm ready to. I'm ready to do this. Because you probably have been working on it. You just didn't realize it.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: No. And the other thing that I think somebody said to me recently, I don't know, like a PhD. I don't know if it's neurology or neuroscience or brain. Some kind of brain science was suggesting that when you engage in rhythmic movement, it's the, like, one of the best things for your brain?
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: So people who walk, hike, bike, like, the things that you do, probably horseback riding, the things that you do that are. That involve, like, a certain amount of rhythmic movement, are really good for the brain, creativity, etc.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, really.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: So you only have one horse now, right?
[00:11:35] Speaker C: I do. Last year I had two, and that was a lot.
I leased one from a lady and to show, and then I still had my horse, and so I had two, and it was double the, you know, double the cost and double the time, really, Even though I only took one to shows. But that was a lot. I. I learned. I. One horse is good. One is good.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Okay. And the other thing I want to ask you because the thing I've always heard about horses, and I keep thinking maybe there's something more to it. They're not the only horse, the only animal, but they're an animal that doesn't learn their own name.
[00:12:17] Speaker C: Huh.
I mean, I guess that that's probably true. I never really thought of that.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: So, like, I mean, you can call a dog and they come, and you call a cat and they come if they feel like it. But.
But horses. I don't know where I was. I was out somewhere. I think it was in Iceland, and they would. I was at some, you know, the Icelandic horses. I was at some Icelandic horse farm, and they were discussing that. And the thing is, like, I don't know if I. I don't think about. Well, to be honest, I don't think about horses that often, so. But when I think about it, I always think that's, like one of the only animals that are herbivores that I think we bond with, because I think we're pretty much us and carnivores are, like, thick as thieves.
[00:12:57] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: But us and herbivores are not so much. And I just. I find it fascinating, the bond that people have had with horses throughout history.
[00:13:08] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, well, they're incredibly beautiful animals, and they do bond with you. You know, maybe they don't know their name, but they know you.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: They.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: They. It has been proven that horses can remember, like, even if you had a horse and then you sell them and years later, you know, you get them back or you see them again, they can remember you. That there have been studies for that, which is really incredible when you think about it.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting. I think. Yeah.
[00:13:38] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't think that. They probably do know their names.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: I think about it.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: It's probably the voice and the way you talk to them because, you know, you go, you gonna talk to a horse the way you talk to your cat or your dog, you know, with a little baby voice and whatever. Not quite the same way. But you say stuff to them and they respond just like a, you know, like, I have a cat. The same way the cat responds, you know, with the being happy to see you, rubbing on you, whatever. I mean, the horse isn't going to rub on you, but they're, they're coming over, right? You know, they're also interested in a treat. But.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah, the sore dogs, I mean, honestly, I treat train dogs exactly.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: I mean, they know their owners or their people and, and you do, because you're working as a team. You do learn each other. You learn the feel, you know, Like, I can always tell if my horse is getting antsy or if I think he's about ready to do something. I can tell because I can feel the change, you know, under me as it's happening and I can stop it. And if it was a horse, I didn't know, I probably wouldn't pick up on those cues. And the same with him. Horses are very spooky animals, you know, they're very like, oh my God, what's that? Oh my God, what's that? But when they trust you, and he does trust me, you know, for riding. And he's like, what is that? And I'm like, it's cool, you're fine, everything's fine. He's like, okay, all right, well, I'm just going to look at it as we walk past it. You know, I'm like, all right, so.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Is your horse water shy? Because that was the always the other thing about, especially when, when I went to camp and all these things, people brought their horse, the environment was different than wherever their horse had been previously. Yes.
[00:15:15] Speaker C: Well, they're prey animals, you know, they're used to fleeing, you know, like on the plains. You've got the water buffalo or whatever always running from the lions. I mean, that's a horse. They're prey, right? And yeah, new environments kind of spook them. And my horse is not a trail horse. So I don't like, get out, throw on the saddle and go for this long, leisurely ride.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: I know the meander thing.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: Yeah, we don't do that. I mean, he's a show horse where it's very much arena based and all, but yeah, like a puddle that wasn't there yesterday. Like what? Oh my God.
And yeah, it's crazy.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Those things I've Always wondered about it. Just, I don't.
When I encounter people with horses, I like, wonder these things. And then to be honest, I will not think about it for like a couple years and then come back and I'll be like, oh.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: I get it. I see. You're obviously not a horse girl because you're born with it or you're not born with it, you know, and you weren't born with it. You. You don't have this craving of being near horses or riding horses or, you know, the horse smell or horse girls love the horse smell. It's that not. Not the stall, but the smell of the horse itself. You know, they have. They have a certain odor to them, and it's like a dusty kind of odor. And, you know, most people love horse smell.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: No, in the posters on the wall and the pictures of them showing and them. The out, like all of it. I've known them. I just am like, that's interesting. What did you read yesterday?
[00:16:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I get it. I get it.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Especially like all the hors. Horse books when I was younger, like in the late 70s, early 80s, were really popular. Yeah.
[00:17:00] Speaker C: Oh, yes. I mean, I read them all. Of course, I read them all. And the first. The first thing I ever attempted to write was story about a horse, you know, I mean, really? Oh, yeah, yeah. I was writing, you know, wild stallions fighting in the valleys or whatever over the herd of mares and, you know, different things. Little short stories. I mean, I was probably, I don't know, seven or eight when I was writing stuff like that, because that's what I read, you know.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Fascinating.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: Yeah. I guess that's what you try to do as a writer is you try to at first, when you're learning is you try to mimic what you love. So that's what it is.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Yes. So my first writing, and I used to have them. I don't even know where those little notebooks are. My, you know, like the steno notebooks from like ages ago. So there were always like these extra steno notebooks in the house. Although nobody I know took stenography. I'm not sure why they were around. But my first stories were written in pencil and steno books when I was like seven or eight. But it was mostly about life in New York City. So, you know, completely different thing.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: So I wanted to ask you. So how did you get into writing? I mean, past your elementary school years?
[00:18:09] Speaker C: Past my elementary school years when I was a budding. A budding horse storyteller, I always got praised for my writing, even at that age, by teachers, I guess I had a pretty good vocabulary and, you know, I had a fairly good way of putting a story together. And so I always got praised.
And that kind of set up the belief that one day I was going to be a writer.
And so I wrote off and on during my teenage years. I had of course, a boyfriend and a breakup and thought I was going to write this just massive novel of our story about.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: You know, I'm laughing because I think I thought the same thing and I attempted it. We're not going to get into that. It's in the book actually around here somewhere.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: Right. I did too. Mine's probably. It's probably gone because, you know, military moves and stuff like that probably got tossed in a move at some point. But yes, I started it. I think I wrote three chapters and, you know, I don't know. But I always just believed I would be a writer and.
And I read romance novels. I read all kinds of things. I mean, after the horse stories, I read Harlequin Presents. That was the first romances I was introduced to.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: And they ask you about that. Okay, so I read the first Harlequins I read were. Oh, they're like the British ones. I have to go look on the shelf. The original, the super skinny, like they were purplish. I don't know, the COVID is probably like sun faded. But the super skinny, like ones, I swear to God, they couldn't been more than 40,000 words now that I think about it. But I found. Okay, okay. As you are at your age and thinking about the Harlequin Presents back then, were you at all. Okay, let me say this. How do you feel about how they portrayed romance? Because when my memory of this from the 70s, the books were from the 70s or 80s, depending on like which grandmother shelf I was futzing around on. They were a lot of like punishing kisses, bruising kisses, brooding men who if you knew they liked you because they stopped yelling. You know what I mean?
[00:20:21] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: But as there was something about it that I found compelling and I didn't expect people to behave like that in real life. But as I think about it now, I would not write that kind of book now. But as I go back and think about it, I wonder.
I wonder about the audience and what they were trying to achieve because it was all alpha males back then.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Presents us still alpha males. And there's still a degree of that brooding billionaire who is autocratic, you know, he's autocratic. There may not be punishing kisses, but the. The idea of him being autocratic and in total control of the heroine except for her spirit, you know, that that's still very much a part of presents, I believe.
Because that's also the line I wrote for the first books I read and the line I wrote for. And I haven't written one now in 10 years. But yeah, I had. My women were always modern and they were at least in control of their mind, you know, of their own mind. And they fought back.
Not a physical fight, obviously, but they fought back. And.
And he eventually had to acknowledge that he was lost without her and, you know, and give her her autonomy and. And not control her anymore. And I don't know why that's a fantasy, but I. I truly believe it still is.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: And that's. I.
I understand. Like, let me say this because I think about it sometimes because I was talking about a. With a friend yesterday who had, like. Who has, like, life problems. And I know the sense of, like. I wish. I think she texted me this morning. She was like, I wish somebody could just come in and save it. And I was like, you can only save yourself or whatever. I mean, the. You know, the message. But, yeah, I do understand the savior idea, but I feel like the autocratic is not the savior, so I'm still trying to tease out what it is. So it gave me, like, a certain feeling when I was a kid, which is why I kept reading them. You know, I didn't pick up. I picked up the first one and I put it down, and I was like. And I was. It was my father's mother, but I was like, in the. She was in a brownstone in Brooklyn, but I was like, in the bookcase where she kept. In the basement, like, looking to see what else there was. You know what I mean? So there was so something compelling about it. But to this day, I can't figure out what is compelling about it because I stopped reading those and I started reading different kinds of romances.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: But I always wonder what it tickles in the brain or what it fulfills, what need we're trying to fulfill or want or desire with those kinds of romances.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I. I mean, I think I know I wrote approximately 20 of them and. And I think I have an idea. And it goes to our friend Theodora Taylor and her universal fantasy, and it's Beauty and the Beast.
How much do we love Beauty and the Beast? You know, Beauty is going. Belle is going to sacrifice herself, so her father is free, and she gets Locked up in this castle with this beast. And he's just horrible, but really he's not. He's wounded, you know, and she. She's the one who tames him and teases that out. And he's actually very lovely underneath all of that, you know, and she's the one who brings that out of him. And yes, I realize that could be problematic in a modern setting. You know, the whole thing. I think the only way to enjoy a Harlequin presents is to realize it is sheerly fantasy. I mean, it's like Theodora always said about the universal fantasies. We like to read the beast. We. We love those stories, but that's not the guy we want, you know, we don't want that guy. We just love to read it.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So how did you come to write for Harlequin? What is that the first. Let me say this. Since you were reading them. So I read them, but I did not want to write for that line. I wanted to write for a different line. What made you think you could do it? I'm not saying. Let me say this. A lot of people would like to write a novel. Many people do not. Right. So what sort of gave you the gumption to go for that and pursue that particular publication path?
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Well, it is a circular route, actually. The first novel I wrote was a historical, and it was absolutely gigantic and chock full of everything that it should not have been chock full of because I was learning. And that's what I wanted to write was historical. And then. And this was in the back in the day when you had to send it to someone and, you know, hopefully they would request more and, you know, you would eventually sell the book. So there was no Kindle. There was none of this.
Yeah. So if nobody bought it, that was it. It was just. It was done for. Right. So I wrote this giant historical, and I had some interest, but I didn't sell it. And it crushed me at the time. I mean, I have to admit, it crushed me. And I hadn't read Harlequin in a while at that point, but I was in my 20s and I kind of thought, oh, this isn't for me. I obviously can't write, you know, And I went and did other things for a while, and my husband was in the Air Force and we got assigned overseas again, so we moved to Germany and we were over there for a while, and I kind of got bit by the bug again and I started writing again. Only this time I started writing contemporary, but it still did not have the bright Idea to write for Harlequin. I was just writing a contemporary. I had joined rwa and so I had that, you know, I had information on the industry and anyway, we left Germany, we moved to Hawaii. And that was the first time I could join a chapter where I could go to meetings because we were in Germany. I mean, there was no chapter over there. And the first time I could go to meetings and it was a lovely little chapter in Hawaii and I started going monthly. Obviously they were lovely and encouraging, but it wasn't a big chapter. And after three years in Hawaii, moved to Alabama, which is where I am now, and joined the chapter here. That was pretty good size and had at the time some high powered authors, Linda Howard and Beverly Barton and Linda Winstead Jones. And they were all multi published and had Linda. Obviously, Linda Howard had done fabulously with her books and they were very encouraging and just wonderful people to know because they were so encouraging. Came to all the meetings, you know, and then I told you this was roundabout.
We had a writing retreat where once a year we would go to this retreat in this inn in Tennessee. And the chapter took over the inn for a weekend. And we just had a great time. You know, we played a murder mystery game. We'd sit and talk. We just. It was. It was wonderful. But another writer told me that Harlequin was having a contest and they were looking for writers for the Presents line. And what she said was, you've lived overseas. I'm sure you could have that international voice that they're looking.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah, because Presents loves that.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it's an international voice. And she said, you know, since you've lived overseas, you could probably do it. And I thought, you know, I used to read those things. I loved them.
I thought, okay, I'm gonna try this. And so I did. I entered the contest and I won. So that's how it started.
It was the first contest that Harlequin had. Actually the precursor to so youo Think youk Can Write. It was the first one.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: So what was the space between the historical and that contest? The time.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Oh, Lord, this is kind of embarrassing. It was better than 10 years.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Wow. Okay.
[00:28:24] Speaker C: Probably more like 12 or gracious.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: It was.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: It was a long time.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: But you knew you were going to get back to. Because I'm thinking the same thing. So I joined RWA and I would go to. For us. It was for us for where I'm in Ally, but Orange county had the chapter with all the like multi published authors. And they did come and I did go and it was super encouraging. Like, I think without that, I have no idea if I would have like continued to beat my head against that particular wall.
[00:28:55] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: But they're like. It was so. It was so. It was actually one of the best, like, women's celebratory spaces that I had, like, for years. And so you'd go and they'd be like, what are you writing? Where did you submit? And they would celebrate, like submissions and rejections and acceptances and all of those things.
Yeah. Which. And so every month you wanted to come in, like, you know, I sent three things or four queries or I got a partial request and all of that. Like, so that was really.
Without that space, I don't know if I would be doing this in the way I'm doing it.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Exactly. I agree. I feel the same.
It was the encouragement of the chapter because I had been like an at large member of RWA for a few years and it wasn't until I was able to join chapters and get that month to month encouragement from writers who were also trying to get there and also writers who. Who were successful. I mean, it was just. It was so. It was so great. And I will always be grateful to the author. She doesn't write anymore. I don't think. Kelly St. John was her name. She wrote for Blaze and she wrote some contemporary romances too.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: That was my favorite line, so. I know. Yeah, Blaze.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: I loved Blaze too. I thought I wanted to write for Blaze. In fact, I was attempting to write one and she's like, oh, no, no, you need to enter this contest. You could do the international voice.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: And I'm like, huh, Present sells better. I mean, it sounds sold better. The. The Temptation and Blaze and all that are gone, but they.
It sold better. I mean, everybody I know who.
That's what's doing better than the people writing for Temptation in place.
[00:30:33] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Those were still my favorite ones. I had so many.
Yeah. So many. And then when I met those authors, I think the first time I met one of some Harlequin author, I don't know, I was in my 30s, I think, and I remember going to the table and I was like, oh, my God. I started reading you when I was 13.
And then I thought about it and I thought, oh, I shouldn't have said it. But it was just.
[00:30:55] Speaker C: Probably shouldn't have coined it that way.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. But I was just like, oh, my God, you don't have no idea. I was 13.
So did you.
How did you find. And this is the thing I Wanted to ask about, because I find this fascinating. So there's in the. Let's just say the, like, literary writer space. People do spend a lot of time. Okay. When I was growing up in New York City, people spent a lot of time talking about the editors that could shape your writing. And this is mostly men, you know, so they would get these editors and they'd work together for whatever number of years and shape their writing and, like, build this career and all of that.
And spaces like that had not existed for women back then, but I found that people I know who wrote for Harlequin sort of had. How can I say this? Like, it wasn't, like, the ability to develop their writing in a way that made it compelling within a certain word limit.
[00:31:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: And I always thought that's actually one of the things I think. Well, me, I don't know about other people was looking for, because I. It's so somewhat similar to you. Like, when I was younger, like, I don't know, elementary school. You should write, because you do that well.
But I read, and I was an only child, so I had a lot of time by myself to read. But I was always looking for, like, that sort of editor who could hone the raw, whatever into something that was sellable.
[00:32:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: And because I was not interested in being a literary writer, I knew those in New York and they had to have another job.
[00:32:29] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: So, I mean. Yeah, I was thinking about it because we used to get a. Like, people's houses when I was young. Probably too young to be hanging out with people like that. But how did you find the editorial process? Did it. Did you take to it?
[00:32:46] Speaker C: I did, actually.
So I won the contest. And the contest was just. At the time, it was. You won an editor for a year. There was no guarantee that you were going to sell a book. Nothing like that. And I won the contest. I think it was like March. And then a week after I won the contest, I found out I was a Golden Heart finalist. So I had this whole, you know, oh, wow, wonderful year going at that point. But I think it was March when they. When they called, and it was like getting the call.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: The call.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: It was. It was the most amazing thing. But anyway, this editor called me and she was so lovely and complimentary and said we would be working together. And she had a lovely British accent because presents are edited out of London.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:31] Speaker C: And so she was the first one I worked with. And I think because I'd been in RWA and I was accustomed to the idea that you would work with an editor, it just was natural to me to think this is how this works, you know?
And I was.
I had a lot to learn because, like you say, you have to learn how to tell a compelling story. And for presents no more than 55,000 words.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: I know.
[00:33:59] Speaker C: 50 is better, but we'll take 55. But 50 is better is the way that they like to tell you. But, yeah, you had to learn how to do all that. And she was really good at stripping everything out and telling me what I needed to do. Like, I would send her the first three chapters, and then she would call me and we would discuss what needed to happen next. And then I would write the rest of the book and send it to her, and then she would call me and tell me what I needed to fix. And I would get an editorial letter as well. This was for probably the first two or three. And after that, it just. It would mostly be an editorial letter, and we would talk. Before I started to write, I didn't have to submit partials.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: At that point, once I completed my first two book contract, we would just talk about my ideas. I didn't have to do a synopsis and write three chapters and get the go ahead. I mean, it was just like, okay, what do you want to write? And then we would talk it out, which was awesome.
But, I mean, there was a lot of work in that. I had to learn how to do it. But also, I had at least one or two books that I had to rewrite, big rewrites. And then I had some that didn't have many rewrites at all. And it was a great process, and I think it served me well in going indie because I'd had the craft training, you know.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I appreciate. It's sort of like. I don't want to make it sound like this way, because this is not how I mean it. But it's sort of like an apprenticeship in the way that. I mean, in a way that you get paid while you're learning things. I'm not saying, you know, but it's good enough to sell. But it's always a learning and evolution process. But being able to do that while also earning money is great.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: So how.
Let me ask you this, because I actually. I haven't read her presents in a long time, and I feel like. Did they stop printing? I feel like last year they only went. They went ebook, and they were one of the last ones, but maybe not. I don't know.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: No, they still print them. That. That line Will still. I mean, forever. I think that will be the last line of Harlequin. Probably that's still alive, you know, if Harlequin. I don't know what's going on with them these days, but I'm sure they're, they're affected by, you know, the romance, exposed, explosion, fermenties. But Presents still publishes and I think they still do six books a month.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: A month?
[00:36:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's still six a month.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: So where were your location. So the one okay. For the few I've read, I always liked. Well, because I travel, so I always like the idea of something set outside of the U.S. yes. And I really appreciated the location. So where did you end up? Where did you set yours?
[00:36:43] Speaker C: My first one was in Spain and that was the only one I ever did in Spain. And then I did some Italian set ones and then my own kingdom, principalities and chics. Because. Good grief, chics. I think I wrote four chics for Harlequin. A lot of Italian or Italian principalities. My own little countries, one Spain.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: This actually sounds exactly, exactly what it is. Yeah. It's not any different.
[00:37:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:15] Speaker B: So when you went indie, what year did you go indie? I don't even know.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: 2013 was when my first one came out, but I still signed another contract with Harlequin and my last book with them, I believe came out in December of 2014. So after that, I mean, I was full indie before that because of course I completed the contract and then I was done. I want to say it was 2014. It might have been 2015, but. But yeah.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: Was your last contract like one book or three? Because a lot of people I know signed like a 3:1. Like I feel like a lot of people did three books in 2012 and they were trying to ride that, you know, step to ride that line. It was very hard.
[00:37:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I, I signed a three book contract because I had built up to the point Harlequin was the moneymaker. And it's not because, you know, you get a ton of sales in one place. It's because of all of the foreign money, the fact that the translations.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:38:10] Speaker C: It went everywhere because of that global voice.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: You know, people everywhere traveled. I saw them, I saw them in Peru like in March.
[00:38:19] Speaker C: Yeah, women can relate wherever they are to a presents to that. I mean, it's a Cinderella story. Right. It's Beauty and the Beast, but it's also Cinderella with, you know, the, the usually poor girl capturing the billionaire's heart or the prince's heart or the king's heart. And so it's such a great universal fantasy, and they go everywhere. And so that money starts to trickle in. And by the time I started to see what Indy could do, I was also doing well enough with Harlequin that I wasn't quite willing to give it up until I had some more evidence, you know?
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I know.
[00:38:57] Speaker C: So I signed that. That next three book contract, and I didn't regret it. I mean, one was a continuity. By continuity, I mean, they. They choose like, they'll come up with a story, an eight arc. Eight book arc. And each writer gets a different couple. And you've got like, it's a family or something. And it's basically work for hire, except you do get royalties. It's just Harlequin retains the copyright.
[00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:29] Speaker C: Because they came up with the story. So I will get royalties in perpetuity for those books, but I will never get those books back. I did four of them, but my last contract had one. And then I wrote a chic duet that I really had fun with. And I've actually gotten the rights back to those two books. Yeah, actually, I've gotten the rights to 10, but which is.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Do you. I'm trying to think because I remember. I remember I know an author, she retired, but she had just signed for three special editions then. I mean, I remember people like, on that, just like Husk one had done the Silhouette. Oh, well, like, they're not Silhouette anymore. When Harlequin bought Silhouette, they did those. And so I know a lot of people who just, like in 2012, 13, 14, were doing those and they signed for three, one signed for five.
[00:40:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: And so they were. They were trying to do both. And some people, I feel like, waited too late to go Indy. So by the time that those contracts ended, they. Indy felt daunting.
[00:40:29] Speaker C: Yes, I agree with that. I. I feel like Harlequin, I don't want to say it was disingenuous of them or deceptive at all, but I think they could see the way the wind was blowing. And they started trying to tie writers down by offering bigger contracts than they had ever offered. Three was pretty standard.
[00:40:51] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, I didn't see it as. Actually, I never thought about what they were doing then. I just remember people were like, I'm thinking about going indie, but I just got this. And I finally got my advance up to X or Y or I can see them all in my head, all the authors. And so 80, 90% of them were like, let me just do this, because I'm not at the end. But I'm getting older. The money's finally coming in. Like, it's sort of like all the work I've done all these years has come to fruition and now I have. They want all these books.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Right? Right. And they want all these books. They. I know somebody who signed. I want to say it was a 20 book contract. And that's just.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Wow. The most I know is five.
[00:41:31] Speaker C: That's a. That's egregious. And this was not a known, you know, somebody who'd been around for years and years. This was a fairly new writer with them, someone I knew. I want to say it was 20 books. I might be wrong. It might have been 12, but it was a big number. It was a double digit. And of course, that initial advance you're going to get, because you're going to get a portion of all of those books initially on signing. That's a good amount of money and it is definitely tempting. Unless you've dipped your toes in indie at that point, 2013, 2014, and you saw what the potential was then you're like, wait a minute, hold up. You know, and I'm thankful I dipped my toes when I did.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. I didn't know it was coming, to be frank. I'm going to be frankly, honest. I didn't see indie working. I couldn't see it, but it was so, I mean, I. I joined RWA, maybe like 2000, like 5, 6, something like that. So, you know what I mean? There's some years that before indie started and I just.
I remember a couple people doing it and you're like, what are you doing? And they're like, I'm doing HTML formatting and it's something I could do. I built websites before, like when they were early. So it wasn't the difficulty of it. It just felt like the distribution was going to be so small, even if the percentage was so large that I didn't see the potential of it. But I'm not one of those future thinkers, so, you know, I get what I get. So what was the first year that.
[00:42:56] Speaker C: You did in indie 2013? I remember I said I had finaled in the Golden Heart. Yeah, the book that finaled in the Golden Heart. I never sold it. I mean, for good reason. I'd gotten an agent.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: But, you know, they call it the curse of the Golden Heart.
[00:43:10] Speaker C: Oh, yes, of course. I mean, the first three chapters are polished within an inch of their life and they're fabulous. And then the rest of the book, because you just had to throw it together, to submit a full book. You know, it just. It doesn't hold up. And unless you've got somebody willing to work with you, you know, you're not going to get it polished. Well, I got an agent based off of the Harlequin win. I hadn't sold yet, but, I mean, she knew it was going to happen. She took me on like, you know.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: It was like, confessed.
[00:43:40] Speaker C: She's like, okay. And so I got an agent, which they say, you don't need one for Harlequin, and you really don't. But I had this grand master plan that I was going to do single title, and I was going to have a big career.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: And I think this is all. Not all right. This was my plan. And I know a lot of people who had this plan. I'm gonna write ex Harlequins. And then I. Because a lot of writers, at least in the 80s and 90s, did follow that path. I mean, tons of them.
[00:44:05] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Linda Howard did it, you know, and I told you, Linda was in my chapter. So, you know, she had started with Harlem. She might have started with Silhouette, but. But she wrote those books. And then she graduated into the big, you know, paperbacks, single title and then hardback, and, you know, all of this. And so I thought, this is how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get the agent, you know, and I've got this book that could be the beginning of a different series. It obviously wasn't a Harlequin, because it was a. It wasn't quite a military romantic suspense. It had the military angle, but the guy goes back to his hometown and there's a murder and the girl he'd left behind, and, I mean, there's a whole thing. So I didn't sell it, and I. But I didn't let it go. I thought, you know, this is the perfect book to test these waters with. And I did, and it did very well. Because I think readers wanted things that weren't quite what they were expecting or weren't. You know, they didn't follow a pattern. Right.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:45:11] Speaker C: And so it did very well. And I thought, huh, you know, this could work out. And so I wrote. I quickly wrote a novella. I made all kinds of mistakes, so let me tell you, I didn't tie things together the way I should. I mean, there was a whole thing. I quickly wrote a novella, and I put that out. And then I think I got invited into an anthology, a Christmas anthology. So I quickly wrote one of those, A Christmas. And again, this time I tied it. You know, I tied it, but not as well as I could have. It was all. I created this series with these military guys. And so I had that. And then I was working on the next big book. And when I put that one out in April of 2014, and I happened to get a book bub for free on book one, well, holy cow. Holy cow. I was like, are you kidding me? I mean, are you kidding me? This is.
Has the potential to be life changing, you know? And so that was the moment. It was April of 2014 was the moment where I'm like, okay, you know, this is the path. This is so interesting.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Okay. Because I think that. So I published a book in March. April. March. I believe It's March of 2014. I remember. I mean, I remember. I mean, the book is. Nothing has changed, but I remember the numbers. And I was like, so is this. Well, I. Okay. I don't ever believe anything's gonna last forever. So I'm not that person. But I was like, this is something else. Because I had just gotten the rights back on a couple things and I sort of dilly dallyed about publishing. I just couldn't. It couldn't. It's not that I couldn't figure it out. It just felt like a lot. And then I did the book in 2014. I was like, oh, I need to republish these other things. And I need to, like. I learned, like, to tie them together like that. I was still going to the chapter meetings. People are like, you gotta tie them together. It just can't be like a loose collection of things.
[00:47:09] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:47:11] Speaker B: And I was like, yeah, but I only wrote this one book to sell it. And then I just wrote another one because that was her best friend. And they're like, are there other people? And I was like, sure. And they're like, write those books.
And you did take that advice. And the advice was 100% spot on, but it's just not.
I didn't have a business mind about it in the beginning in terms of like an ultimate arc of marketing.
[00:47:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I didn't either. I made all the mistakes, really.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: I saw people do it well and I saw people rebrand. I mean, people have fixed it for many, many ways, but it was just. It was. It wasn't so much a gold rush. It was just surprising because publishers had said for many years, you know, people don't read. And we're not going to get into whether or not that's true. People don't read. They only want to Read this. In this narrow field of things, they, you know, you can only sell these 10 things to people. And all of the things that sort of even I had been looking for as a reader were suddenly available. But I think that had to be true for other people as well.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. I mean, a friend. I was talking to a friend the other day, and she was talking about, this is funny. But she was like, you know that somebody's sending me all these recommendations and tentacle porn is a thing. And I had no idea. And it's fabulous. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, Indy really created. Created this space for whatever to exist. If there's an audience, it's out there, you know?
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Oh, my God. You only think about Chuck Tinkle. I haven't thought about that in years. Oh, God, yeah. So did you think, though? And this is the thing that I always felt, and I was a little envious of because I did not ever sell the book to Harlequin, no matter how many editors I chased down at RWA conferences, that the ability to be able to do that efficient storytelling made in India an easier transition.
[00:48:58] Speaker C: I think it did, because I already knew the rhythm of a book, even though my indie books are longer, but I had the rhythm, and I knew approximately how much time it took me to write a Harlequin. So I could figure out, with this book being longer, how much time it would take. I mean, I wasn't floundering around in the, oh, my God, what's next? Other than the typical what's next? That we do even when we know what we're doing. Right?
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:27] Speaker C: You know, there's a rhythm. You know, there's a rhythm. You can't just go on and on forever with them having lunch and meeting up for coffee.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: And, you know, I'm laughing because, like, I'm writing a book now, and my son walked like, he goes, are they still in that damn restaurant?
[00:49:42] Speaker C: I was like, yes.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: It was like, but clearly, I will get them out or cut this out.
[00:49:47] Speaker C: Yeah, there must be a point. Like, when my brain goes that way, I'm like, well, there must be a point. So I'll follow it for a while, and then I may even write the whole scene. And then later, if I'm like, well, there wasn't really a point. I was just filling space because I didn't know what else to do. Well, that's different. But I trust my brain enough now that I believe there is a point to it. And there often is. There almost always is a point to those Scenes, you know, something gets revealed, some, you know, emotion gets recognized. I mean, something happens. But I think before Harlequin, I wouldn't have gotten there as quickly. I would have been spinning my wheels and not knowing how to make those transitions and how to make that scene mean something.
And I just. I feel like also I had the rhythm after 20 books, I had the rhythm of how the production goes, you know, I mean, Harlequin was actually very fast. Between the time I got the acceptance and it was published, was 10 months. And that is extremely fast.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah.
[00:50:53] Speaker C: I mean, people don't think that now. They're like, oh, my God, 10 months. But no, 10 months was very fast. And so I got that, you know, that idea, that rhythm going for how to get it done, knowing that it was going to be. I had to finish it, it was going to come out, you know, in 10 months. They had it slotted in the schedule, and they needed it by a certain time, you know, and, no, that was.
[00:51:18] Speaker B: The beauty of publishing. I remember the first one, and they were like, it's. It was April of 2013 or something like that. And, yeah, it was April 2013. And it was like, well. And so the thing is, like, I'm like, well, okay, so you're already slotted. They already have a cover. They've already moved on. You know, like, okay, so now I have to actually write the book behind this or finish or publish or polish or whatever I was doing behind it. And so that was always.
Having a slot was lovely. Although, when people dropped out and they opened up, I mean, I learned a little bit about that jigsaw later. But I guess.
I guess my question is, how did you come to trust yourself? Because I only came to that.
I don't know, maybe five or six books ago, maybe more. I'd have to really sort of think about it. But I woke up one day and I was like, so this process that I go through, where the book starts off, delightful. I have all these ideas. I get to 20,000 words. I would rather do anything else other than write this book. I would like to throw it away. Can I set it on fire? Can I, like, get it? You know, I start, like. You know, like, sometimes people come like, oh, the baseboards are clean. I'm like, yeah, it's not going well. And. But I now trust. I'm still annoyed by the whole thing. I just clean the banister outside. But it's not that I'm not annoyed by the process, but I no longer worry that there will be no book at the end.
[00:52:39] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: But how long, when did you, how many books did it take you to trust yourself in that space? Because it's really, it's like a mind I don't even know so hard. Like it's a brain thing. I know that.
[00:52:51] Speaker C: It really is. I mean, on the one hand I always think this is the book that it's over, my career is over. This is terrible. Every time.
[00:52:59] Speaker B: Everybody, I'm gonna tell you, the one I'm writing now is the last one.
[00:53:02] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, seriously, you always think that, right?
[00:53:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:05] Speaker C: This last book that I, that just came out in October, I thought, well, this is it, you know, it's all over. This is awful. I can't, I don't know what I'm doing. So I think I don't know what I'm doing every time. But in fact I do know what I'm doing and I know if I just push through it. And I do have High Achiever. I'm a number three achiever, so. And that's the CliftonStrengths for anybody who isn't familiar with that. And Becca sign, you know, the right Better Faster academy. But plug Becca, she has definitely.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Well, she was a guest because we all talk about her all the time. Yeah, it was the number one thing that people talked about was her, Theodore Taylor and Maggie Moore.
[00:53:45] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean they're all three fabulous. And Becca really helped me learn some things about myself and how I work. But achiever has just always believed that she could do it. And I have high futuristic as well. I think I'm a 5 futuristic. So the futuristic always sees the future, knows that we got this. You know, even though in the moment my number two in election is like, oh my God, you're just this, this is it, you're screwed. You know, you're just never gonna get it. You're just this, it's over.
I always feel like I'm going to finish the book. But the quality of the book is what worries me so I'm like, you're gonna finish it and you're gonna get it out there by golly, no matter what. They are gonna get a book on this date.
[00:54:31] Speaker B: Right?
[00:54:32] Speaker C: But will it be the book that ends everything? Because they're gonna be like, what in the heck is this? You know, so.
[00:54:38] Speaker B: No, I think that all the time. And I was actually just, I was, it doesn't matter. I was logged into the author portal and I was like, I was looking at some reviews for some book and I was like, I Never looked at the reviews, but I was like, oh, people really like this. I was like, I haven't thought of this thing in a while, but I didn't at the time of writing. And I'm really struggling with this. It felt compelling. And I'm gonna be honest, once I release the book, I sort of release it from my life. I don't actually think about it in again.
[00:55:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of the same, except that mine are series. So I have to think about the couple and the arc, you know, how they fit. Because I found that my readers really love those community scenes where all the previous couples show up and the couple that's trying to get together in this book is there. You know, it's always like a barbecue or a dinner or a bar scene or something where they all get together. And so they're still on my mind in that way. But otherwise, I've forgotten pretty much everything.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: I struggle with that. Let me say this. This is the most embarrassing thing I think ever happened. This is back when I used to be on Facebook way more often. I was writing something and I posted on Facebook. I was like, I just can't remember what happened two books ago, and I didn't feel like going to look back. And my audiobook narrator posts, and he was like, this is what happened.
I was like, you seem to remember better than I.
But I do. So I do write series, and I do. I had to do a series Bible, like, I like, maybe. And actually, the book I'm writing is not in the series. It's the first one. Like, I wrote 15, and I think I'm done, but with that series. But I think that I had to do a Bible. I had to do all these things because it was just became overwhelming to try to remember details that readers seem to remember far better than I do.
[00:56:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they do well. So here's what scares me. Every time I got a. A new book coming out, they'll be posting in my group about how they're rereading the whole series before they read this book. And I'm like, my goodness, they've read it way more than me. You know, I mean, what must they think?
[00:56:45] Speaker B: But.
[00:56:46] Speaker C: But they do it every time, and they just. They claim they love it. And so I guess they must or they wouldn't do it. But I think, oh, my gosh, what are the holes that they're gonna find? Because, you know, it's like when you watch a movie several times and you start seeing, like, where they left something in the background that shouldn't have been there, or stuff changes from scene to scene, you know, or from viewpoint to viewpoint. And you're like, oh, dear, that's an error. You know, I wonder about those people who read the books over and over again, what they must think, but none of them have complained.
[00:57:20] Speaker B: No, nobody has ever said anything to me. I think it now. Except I did leave a cat out of one of the books. And I honestly, I was like, I hadn't even thought about the cat. I mean, that's not my best moment. But I do wonder what, like, some reader emailed me. I don't know if it was a summer or last winter. And she was like, I was just reading book three and book six, and it's, like, amazing that you, like, connected these people. And I was like, okay, if you say so.
[00:57:47] Speaker C: Right? You're like, how did I.
Your brain just knows what to do, I think. I mean, I think that's the part.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: I think that's it. Yeah.
I think that's the thing that. To be honest, that's the thing that Becca helped me with the most. I think, you know, the right, better, faster, and I think, you know, you do the coaching. And we were on Skype sitting where I'm sitting right now. And at some point I was. I don't know what I was saying. It doesn't matter. And she was like, well, how many books have you written? I was like, whatever number. And she was like, so it works, right? And I was like, yeah. She was like, so. So stop trying to. Stop trying to rig it, fix it, do anything to it. She's like, if it works, just keep doing it. Yeah. And it was like, people were like, what did you get from the writing coach? And I was like, she told me to leave the process alone. And it was actually the greatest sort of relief I ever got. Because after that, and this is when. When we were all in the back of some five, six years ago, maybe.
[00:58:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:58:37] Speaker B: After that, I don't think about it any more. Like, half the grief is gone.
It's just like, yeah, this will work out. You know, it's worked out before. It'll work out again. And I'm not going to give any energy to the worry now. You know, the restaurant scene, I'm still giving some energy to because they're back eating again.
[00:59:02] Speaker C: There must be a clue in the restaurant. I don't. I don't know.
[00:59:06] Speaker B: There's got to be a clue. Like, I'm trying to. I'm trying to build this sort of Suspense. It's a. It's a psychological thriller. And I'm just really struggling with the.
You're nice, but you're also evil.
And I can't. I can't. I'm threatening. I'm walking that line, and I don't feel well, but I'm not going to worry about it. It'll work out at the end.
[00:59:24] Speaker C: It will. That's the thing. It will. Even though you think it won't. It will. I mean, same with. With me in this. My books have gotten longer with this new series that I'm writing.
I was always writing around 80, 85,000. I mean, Harlem, of course, was 50, 55. And then I suddenly had the freedom to do 70, 80, 85. And the new series. I mean, when that sucker was at 90 and hadn't ended yet, I was like, oh, my gosh. And it came out at 104. And the. The second book that I just finished, that one was 90, I think, or 92.
So it was longer. And for me, there were a lot of those kind of scenes, like, what the heck? You know, why are they just. Again, why are they at the barbecue? Or why are they just sitting around talking again? Weren't they just having breakfast? I don't know, but it seems like there was a purpose. In fact, after all.
[01:00:23] Speaker B: I'll ask you this. So I'm thinking about the length, because recently, so I'm writing this book and I got to 25,000 words and nothing had happened yet. I don't mean nothing, but you know what I mean? I was like, at the pace this is going, this book can't be 75,000 words. And so then like, maybe like a week ago, I was on Kobo because you know how Kobo has the word count? Yeah. And so I was on Kobo looking at the word count of all, like, a ton of recent books. And I don't think I had realized that a lot of books have really gotten longer. So a lot of books I've read and I was looking at Kobo are like in the 90 to 100,000 word count, which was surprising because I hadn't noticed the shift, especially with ebooks, since I'm not carrying it around. You know what I mean?
[01:01:05] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: I hadn't noticed the shift, but I think it's interesting. I do. Okay. The thing I love most about indie is the ability to tell the story I want to tell in the number of words I want to tell it. And readers have not had. I was just talking to somebody about Kristen Ashley in the Wallpaper or whatever. Readers have not specifically had a lot of pushback about that. I mean, there's always the readers who are like, I wanted the book to go on long and can you have 15 epilogues? But I do know that, you know, people do have a shortened attention span in theory. But there has been no pushback over the length. And I always find that interesting. Nobody, no readers ever written me and go, well, this one was too long.
[01:01:41] Speaker C: Right? Like, you could have wrapped that up 15,000 words ago. I don't think they. I don't think they think that way. And especially in the romance space when they do want more epilogues about the happy couple and stuff. I think they like those scenes where the couple's just hanging out, having breakfast. I mean, as long as they're talking about something, if they've got some banter, it seems like their relationship is progressing or whatever. I think. I think they love it.
[01:02:09] Speaker B: I just find it interesting because. Because I came of age, as it were, in the traditional space where there were no alternatives. There were so many rules and strictures around what readers would like. And I'm always honestly surprised. That's not really fair that readers are like, that's great. And they don't like, you know, notes. And you're like, okay, yeah. You know, I think it's fascinating. So what, other than presents? What, in Horse.
Horses. Sorry, I'm gonna. I'm laughing. I don't mean to laugh. What did you read growing up?
[01:02:44] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Well, Nancy Drew, of course, some Hardy Boys and my mother. Okay. My mother had these, like, big, sweeping, insane historical romances that were not technically romances. They were more like historical fiction, but very soapy, I guess.
[01:03:08] Speaker B: I think of the Masagas. Like, those were popular. Yeah, yeah, right.
[01:03:13] Speaker C: And they always had a heroine who was downtrodden. I mean, they had. They shared a lot of space with romance, except they could go across a generation. You know, I remember there was specifically one about a woman who was married to Queen Elizabeth's the Courtier that, you know, she had those certain ones that she always had in her space, like, and she was jealous of his wife. And I mean, there was. There was this whole thing with I. Obviously, I mean, Elizabeth the First, but it was one of those. There was one about Peter the Great of Russia. I mean, different stuff. I probably shouldn't have been reading them, let me tell you.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: But she had them look back now, I think. But I. As a child and who was reading. Nobody ever said anything.
[01:03:57] Speaker C: Right, right. I mean, they didn't and my mom had these things and they were laying around and I'm like, well, okay, this looks fun. And I'd get into it and, boy, I'd just be. I mean, I remember the one about Peter the Great, the girl that ends up being his wife and being the Empress of Russia. It's nowhere near accurate. I know. I mean, I think it's based on. Loosely, on history. But she was like a camp follower. I don't quite think they called her a terrible word then, but I got the context. And so she was, you know, found in the closet with, you know, a man attempting to rape her, I believe. I mean, it was just. It was this over the top stuff. And I was probably 13 or 14, and I'm like, devouring it, you know, I mean, it was just this sweeping historical story, and so I loved that.
Gosh, I can't even remember what else.
[01:04:59] Speaker B: Wait, but did you read. Sometimes we talk about this, like, on the podcast, like the. Well, I don't know. The other things came later, but. Like the Sweet Valley High, like those sorts of contemporary short series.
[01:05:12] Speaker C: No, I think they probably came later. I mean, I.
I was a teenager in the early 80s, so I don't remember when those showed up reading the romances.
[01:05:26] Speaker B: Well, I read both because I remember buying them because they were really expensive, because they were hardcover, but they were only, I swear to God, 35, 000 words. Because I would read it in like an hour and I'd look up and I thought, did I just spend my allowance? Walk down the street, go to the bookstore, come back, and that's gone. You know, I didn't. I think I went to the library all the time. And I. I really sort of hoarded the series books because I wanted them all. I remember, like, Sweet Valley High, I think I feel like it ended in, like, 19. I stopped reading in 1984, and I had like 50 or 40 or something.
[01:05:59] Speaker C: I would have been. I mean, I would have been. I was still a kid then. I just. I didn't read those. But you know what? I did read now, to think about it. And my mom even bought them for me. She probably had no clue. The V.C. andrews books. Yeah, I read those two children in the Attic and all that. I mean, oh, my gosh.
[01:06:16] Speaker B: Horrible. I don't know if I'm gonna forever be scarred. Not scarred. I just. I will never forget any of that. Like, the impact was so I can't tell you how great the impact was, but I remember. I remember it so specifically. I also remember, like, Clan of the Cave Bear. And those I read. I was seventh and eighth grade because I know we'd have these.
I don't even know if people do this anymore. We'd have these field trips where they'd have like a coach, like type bus and you would drive like up and down the east coast and you would go to like, you know, I don't, I don't know, we went to like battle places, the Amish country, like all these like random things up and down the east Coast. But it was always like a week long trip for school and you had a lot of time because it had to be on the bus. And so that's when I read Clan of the Cave. But I remember reading that I was probably. Well, we did the trips in both seventh, eighth grades. I don't remember, maybe fifth grade and sixth grade too. I remember reading those kinds of things. And in retrospect, they were. I don't even know what they were like. I have no categorization for that. Yeah, I did find them fascinating and they were the kind of thing that.
Well, you would. I don't know, maybe libraries now have more books. But I always felt like you were like waiting, waiting, waiting. It came your turn, you read it and returned it, and then you're waiting, waiting, waiting for the next one.
[01:07:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I read so many different things I can't even remember, but it was like that. You know, you go to the library and you check things out and then you'd read them and. Yeah, I don't remember what they were because they were. I don't want to say they weren't memorable. It was just. If it wasn't a horse book, it wasn't as shocking as VC Andrews or Stephen King. You know, I said VC Andrews was horrible. I didn't mean the stories were horrible. I mean they were compelling. I meant it was horrible at my age to read them.
[01:08:06] Speaker B: Well, I don't know. Brother, sister incest is like, you know.
[01:08:09] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's.
[01:08:10] Speaker B: Yes, it is. I mean, yeah, as an adult, you're like, oh.
[01:08:16] Speaker C: Huh.
[01:08:17] Speaker B: But as a kid, it was so taboo like that. And also the first it was one of. Oh, I. I found this book later, but I read a book in the 80s that was like a step sibling romance. And I was literally like glued. Like, I read that book twice because I was like, I can't. Oh. And now I understand that that became a whole thing later. But when I was a child, it was so taboo.
[01:08:40] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[01:08:42] Speaker B: And so like those kinds of things stick with me. I read tons of things that I don't remember. And my mother had a thing for English novels, so I read a lot of English novels, which I still like. English novel, English novelist. Storytelling in Irish. Novice storytelling is my favorite.
But that's because that's what we had at home. And the books, like. Because I think you had to send them, you know, freight from was a lot of money. They were super. The pages were super thin. Like, you'd see through them. And the type was really small, but I found them all compelling. And it was also in the house, and I didn't have to leave go very far to find them.
So how many books have you written to date now?
[01:09:22] Speaker C: Oh, my. I counted it up recently, and I never remember. This is just terrible. I think I may have just finished the 64th or 66th book. I can't. I can't quite recall, which is awful. But I count them up and I'm like, oh, that many? And then the next time I think about it, I don't remember what it was, but I want to say it was. It was in the 60s for sure.
64.
[01:09:48] Speaker B: So I'm gonna ask you a question. I ask a lot of guests now that you can look back across your entire oeuvre, as it were, do you find there are themes, you know, in, you know, with the hindsight being 20 20, there are themes that have played out across books that you would not have seen while writing them. You know, the forest for the trees and all that. Yeah.
[01:10:16] Speaker C: I mean, I think the concept of found family is a big one for me. And also, even though I have a perfectly lovely family, I often orphan my heroines. I don't know why.
Not necessarily.
[01:10:33] Speaker B: Honestly. Most books do it. I think because it makes the storytelling easier. I mean, like Harry Potter or anything. Like, orphans are easy to manage. Right.
[01:10:42] Speaker C: They're a lot. Even if sometimes. Sometimes I purposefully give them a lovely family that's off somewhere else because I'm like, you know, you've had too many of these heroines where their family has died. You know, you need to.
You need to have a happy family off somewhere. So I will do that. But, yeah, I often write. Characters are always seeking. My main characters are always seeking that acceptance. And that family feeling, I guess, is the theme that surprises me most, in a way. But it's also. It's also one of the ones readers love. They love Found Family because I think, especially now we.
You know, family is about more than who you're related to. It's the family you make. And in these kind of times, when sometimes families aren't speaking because of politics, because it does happen, sometimes it's your friends, you know, the family you've made, your close friends that maybe are more of your family to you than the ones you grew up with. So I think found family resonates big time because of that. Because the concept of I can still have a family, you know, they. We don't have to be related. We can be a made family, a found family. I think that concept is comforting to people. It is to me. Even though, again, my family's perfectly lovely.
[01:12:12] Speaker B: No, I think it is. I think for. Okay, so I am from New York City and I live in Los Angeles. And while there's a core group of people, obviously, who were born and stay and never leave, there is because of the kinds of cities, they are a large transient population.
And I think in places like this, found family is very important because, look, you're not flying home every 15 seconds. You know what I mean? You can't. Well, some people do, but you know what I mean? It's just not practical.
And so being able to, like, celebrate wins, have people support you, like during hard times and all of that where you are is very comforting, I think.
[01:12:52] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:12:55] Speaker B: So, Lynray Harris, I want to thank you so, so much for taking your time out to speak with me today. I appreciate it very much. And thank you so much for chatting about horses. Yeah, you're welcome.
[01:13:08] Speaker C: Hey, anytime you want to chat about horses, you just call me up. Well, I'll tell you all about them.
[01:13:13] Speaker B: And it was just, it's a delight talking to you. And I haven't seen you in a while because I don't leave my house much.
[01:13:19] Speaker C: No, I hear you.
[01:13:21] Speaker B: Well, one day.
[01:13:21] Speaker C: One day we will be at a retreat again together, I hope.
[01:13:26] Speaker B: I know Covid, really, it did that whole thing really so much. But I do greatly appreciate talking to you today and I can't wait for you to keep on writing.
[01:13:37] Speaker C: Thank you so much. I have been happy to be here with you and it's an honor.
[01:13:42] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[01:13:50] Speaker D: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share rate and leave a five star review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the Nicole Long series are now live. You can download Outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader Right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. The these titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook.
My next book, His Last Mistress is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook@legal thrillerauthor. You can find me on TikTok ocialthrillerauthor. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at a time tothrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
