Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to A Time to Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the delight of speaking with author Sarah Vance Tompkins.
So Sarah came into the industry at a later time, and I don't mean later, how can I say this? There was a lot of the authors I know around my age came into writing and publishing in a very prescribed traditional era. It was query, get an agent, get a publishing deal, or query if you could like, right. For Harlequin or some of the romance publishers, it was query, get a book deal, whether it was one, three or five at the time, actually get a book deal, get your advance, sell your books and move on to the. Whatever the next thing was and whether that was selling more books to Harlequin, getting a single title deal with Harlequin, getting a single title deal with a New York publisher, getting an agent and getting a hardcover deal. So there were very strict paths and people followed those paths and there weren't a lot of alternatives. Then came Amazon and Kindle and the ebook revolution and that changed. And Sarah came to publishing not even during like the beginning of the cusp of that change, like 2010, 2012. She came a little bit later in 2016 when that sort of revolution happened and things were different. There were a lot of small ebook first publishers who were out there who either were like running, we need amazing machines and selling to not only their little people in their universe, but were able to move nimbly and market well, or there were many who came and flamed out. And so it was when you were like selling your. It was easier to sell a book, but you didn't know what was going to happen if you sold a book. Back in the day, you could have good sales or bad sales, but you had a much better idea of what was going to happen to your book after publication. And in 2016 it was the Wild West. So we talk a little bit about that. I'm going to talk about a little bit about making achievements later in life and what third act holds.
So I think I met Sarah. I mean, I think I know I met her through the romance community as I meet all.
But she was a member of both the Los Angeles and Orange county romance writers. And back in the day, especially in like 2016, I used to go to all of those meetings monthly for the most part. I went to like monthly meetings at OCC and then oddly, less meetings, less often in Los Angeles.
But all that said, we, we actually used to meet in Borders, which is long gone.
So long gone. But we used to Meet, like, at bookstores, the back of bookstores, and have these meetings and spend a lot of time. And there was a lot of camaraderie, and it was a time when you could seek out advice and, like, sort of apply it instantly. And also, and we talk about this a little bit, the RWA at the time, sort of like mystery writers or science fiction and fantasy, Those, like, three organizations had a lot of heft, and for genre writers, could, like, move the ball forward. Not always, because they didn't always do the right thing, when I get into that, but they could help move the ball forward and deal with wholesale issues like AI and now we have to rely on the Authors Guild, who's actually doing a fine job, especially with the anthropic settlement. But it's a different era where, yes, as indie authors, you can really be nimble and do your own thing.
But also, it's really hard to have collective action without organizations supporting that.
So we talk about that and other things. But it's a great talk. It's in video. So you get to see the both of us here in my house and everybody else in their home.
So without further ado, I'd like to give you the opportunity to hear this lovely talk with Sarah Vance Hopkins, because, as always, I have so many questions.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to take a moment to thank this episode's sponsor, Audible.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: You know how much I love a good story.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: I write them, I read them, and sometimes when I can't sit down long enough to open a book, I listen to them. Lately, I've been listening to Audible while I walk, travel, or even sometimes while cooking dinner. There's something about hearing a story perform that makes it come alive in a different way. I just finished. Okay. Julie Chan Is Dead by Leanne Zhang, an Alice Feeney book, Blue, Beautiful, Ugly.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: And the latest Lynley book by Elizabeth George. So I'm gonna be honest. This is how I do it.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: I get a book both on Kindle and on Audible, and I go back and forth listening to both. So when I'm driving in the car or with my son at some activity, I will listen to audiobooks, and then when I'm home, I read them on Kindle. And Audible makes it easy to switch back and forth in the app.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Honestly, I do it every time. I just.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: I want to keep the book going while I'm driving.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: And so I just switch to the.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Audiobook, and then when I get home, I switch back to the Kindle because, honestly, I can read Faster than I can listen anyway. The best part is that with Audible.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: You get a 30 day free trial.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: You can start listening today. You get one audiobook you can keep forever, even if you cancel. So if you've been wanting to read more stories that pull you in and won't let go, including my own Casey Court series, which are all available on audible, go to audible.com the link is in the show notes or in the alternative ebooks buzz Audible.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Hi, and welcome to A Time to Thrill. This is me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I have the delight of speaking with Sarah Vance Tompkins. Hi. Hello.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: It's good to be here.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: How are you?
[00:06:22] Speaker C: Good. It's so nice to see your face after all these years.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: I used to go out before COVID.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: I don't know what to say.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: I don't know whether the change has been. Okay, well, you know, two things happened at the same time. RWA had its lovely implosion and then Covid. So between those two things, I feel like I used to be out every month at least doing Oscar things. And then a lot of them just went away.
And then also how many author things, As I get older, I'm like, how much of this am I going to do?
You know what I mean? So there may have been natural attrition. Otherwise, I'm not sure.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: I have gone to some.
Like, I miss RWA a lot, but I. I understand why it imploded and I believe strongly and it should have been imploded, but there's. I just feel like there's no better time, that. No more of time that we need someone like an organization like that that would advocate for authors especially, you know, now that independent publishing is so prevalent and AI, I think we just need to address it as a. As a group, as a force. And. And the other thing was just the.
Oh, just that closeness that you felt to other authors and.
And that those lunches at Orange county on Saturdays, they were heartwarming. They kept. Kept me going occasionally. I've been to a couple of author events, but they've been like reader events. One was at. In Hawthorne at Common Spaces Brewery. And it was a huge romance author thing, reader thing. And thousands of people showed up. But it was from a different angle, from the perspective of readers rather than writers. But still there were all these young women there who were totally jazzed about reading. And it got me like back feeling that. That feeling that we had.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: That's nice. I don't think I've done an author thing since COVID I know I Went to do some library things, but they're sort of divorced from any context. But I'm not sure if I've done anything like that since COVID That's nice, because I do find that every so often I get, like, a reader email. And I think to myself, oh, this is why. This is why I do it. Excuse me. But, like, so recently, actually, I got another email. I'll say this. And she.
[00:08:52] Speaker C: I have never gotten one, so I'm so jealous. But. So tell me.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yes, I get them all the time, but. Well, there's a reason.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Why.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Because I write about topics that are.
What is the word to say? Triggering. And I don't mean this in a bad way.
You should be doing. Yeah, I get a lot of emails where they're very personal. And I don't get, like, at the beginning of this, you know, Beth, you're.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Now.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: So we used to talk about this. And so she used to get emails from readers, and she'd be like, you should write a review. And I'm like, if I get, like, a heartfelt email about people talking about, like, abuse or foster care, that's really not the time to have a conversation about reviews. But I did get an email from an author who's like, I. I just found you. And I read 10 of your books, and I have five to go. And I thought, wow, she's blown through them.
[00:09:33] Speaker C: She.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: I have nothing else to give her.
[00:09:36] Speaker C: I gotta get back to the. Gotta get back to the keyboard.
I think.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: I think. I think I've got nothing else to offer you right now. So I want to ask this. When.
Okay, let's start at the beginning. How did you come to writing?
[00:09:54] Speaker C: Oh, I think I came to it by reading. I was. I was an only child.
My father went to the library every Tuesday night.
I read. I think when I was three, I learned how to read. And so I was an early reader, loved to read.
We were a small family. We. We didn't have a lot of money, so reading was, for me, the world. It brought the world into the house.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: And did you grow up in California?
[00:10:28] Speaker C: No, I grew up in north. In Michigan.
I'm from Michigan. I was born in a small town in northern Michigan and grew up in a suburb of Detroit.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: Okay, so wait, why Tuesday night, just to randomly? Because we went. We went on Saturdays.
[00:10:44] Speaker C: Oh, let me tell you why. Because back in Warren, Michigan, or in Detroit, there is a.
A soda fountain place called Saunders Hot Fudge Saunders. They actually sell chocolates, and they sell it, like, across the United States and on Tuesday nights they had the, their happy hour for the hot fudge. Sundays it was a 10 cent, I believe, hot fudge sundae back then. And so my, that was my. And there was one right next door to the library. So on Tuesday nights, so we would go to the library and then get the hot fudge sundae for 10 cents.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Okay, that is, that is the way to talk about combining two things.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that was my dad. You know, he, he, if he could, he was like the original multitasker. He would be reading two magazines, a newspaper and have the television on and be perfectly happy. Just that he needed that. He was like me, that information overload. Constant need for information input all the time.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: I just switched through two different channels. I'm trying to watch them at the same time. And I was like, I don't think I should watch a video and then play a.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: Well, I've gotten to the age where I can't like drive the car and listen to the radio at the same time. Not true, but I'm getting close, let me just say. So that's, that's where it started. I became crazy for Agatha Christie when I was in fourth grade. I mean I read all of them and that's all I wanted to do.
When I was in seventh grade, I wrote a book, my first mystery, it was called the Diamonded Death. And the guy, that guy was actually beamed to death with a giant diamond, which I thought was so clever at the time. And now I'm just like, it was like a baseball sized diamond and they. Yeah. So anyway, and. But right about that time when I was 13 is when I started reading romance. And I think that if you. And I mean like not reading it was devour.
And that, that kind of took over my Agatha Christie phase just because it was like the happily ever after. It was a drug.
The happily ever after and the romance is, is a drug. And I don't think I got over it for a long.
Now in my Agatha Christie years, or maybe I'm in my Miss Marple years, I've started writing, started writing mysteries and I feel like it's in a really. I'm in a really good place with it. I, I absolutely, really love it.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Okay, so, okay, I have about 1400 questions and I'm going to start with one. What era of romance did you come into? Because I came in okay. At the used bookstore it was still Barbara Cartland, but at the library, the library had presents and. But what I could get from what we called tag sales back then, garage sales, I don't know sales of people's houses on their front lawn or front yard.
Those you could get at the time. I never read historical, so I can't speak to that. And I now know that was different. But I. For contemporary, that was at the time of like temptation first came out and things like that. So I had the Barbara Cartland I probably read too because I was like, this is not working for me.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: Yeah, these were definitely Harlequin or Silhouette. I have a feeling I remember the Silhouette. Yeah. Yeah. When I was coming of age that they, they were both there. I was a junior librarian and that meant I got to check out the children. I had a desk and a stamp, you know, I could check out the children's books. And then the librarian name was Effie Peterson.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: A librarian named effie. And at 3 o' clock in the afternoon, she'd take a quarter out of the, the fine drawer and have me run to the grocery store across the street and get two chocolate bars. And that was our treat. And they have to. My. My world is molded by treats and chocolate.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: I like chocolate and books. That's so fascinating. Okay, so what when you.
Okay. The first romance I read, I actually have it here because it was my grandmother.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: You do you remember it? I, I. Mine are all blended together because I, I read too many.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it was because my grandmother. So I had, Well, I had two grandmothers obviously.
[00:14:55] Speaker C: Did you grandmother read? Did you have relatives who read? Yeah.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: So everybody read every. No. So that's the thing, everybody read a lot. My mother read like English novels that they were imported and the paper was super thin because then importing things was expensive.
My mother's mother read whatever was popular. So she would buy from New York City, she would buy dime nickel and dime store novels and the subway. But then she also read like whatever was popular. So like Rosemary's Baby and like whatever. The top selling oddity of the moment in my head. But my father read only like newspapers and magazines like Time, Newsweek, that kind of thing. I don't know.
[00:15:36] Speaker C: My mom is completely a non fiction reader. She will not, she does not recognize fiction.
I think is made romance for me very forbidden because.
But also it got me, it allowed me to read it because she didn't know what I was reading. But second of all, it became something that you know, I read and my dad read spy. Spy novels. He loved spy novels. And so the two of us were like sneaking these. And my mom was very much reading very dry fiction. I mean nonfiction stuff. So no.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: So but my father's mother read.
It's so weird because she actually, she was a very. She was a big talker. I shouldn't say this, I'm a talker, but she was a big talker. And I don't know if I ever saw her read. She had piles of books, but.
But she also was cooking. I mean, she was doing traditional woman things, which is its own thing. She was cooking all day, ironing clothes and, you know, all that kind of thing.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: So you have a multi generational family in the same home or.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: No, but everybody lived in Brooklyn and I spent time.
So at the.
When my parents got divorced, they moved back into their parents homes.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Oh, okay. All right.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: So my mother lived in her mother's house and my father lived in his mother's house.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: You know what I mean? So they each had a house in Brooklyn. And my, so my mother, my father's mother had this one book called the Taming of Tamsin, I remember. But she, she, they bought me lots of books, but they were all children's books. I have no idea what possessed me that day to like wander around the house and pick that up. Maybe it was the purple cover. And I read it and I was like, oh, what. What just happened? I don't know what just happened, but something just happened. And I read that one many times because I feel like she only had the one.
[00:17:21] Speaker C: My grandma had that I stole off my grandma's bookshelf too. She had. Was it, Was it Shayna by, by Kathleen Woodworth? Was that the one?
And I read that I don't know how many times.
Yeah, and I, I probably read it before I knew what was actually happening.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: When I was younger, I don't think I understood. And okay, the book is not good. The messages are not good. I don't think he ever says he likes her. He doesn't talk to her. He looks at her evilly like, you know, she's up there, like serving him meals while he's like, I don't know if he's working typing, I don't know if she was a secretary or whatever, I'd have to go think about that.
And yet I pursued more of them. So when I used to go to the public library and at first, like, librarians would give me like, what they thought I was interested in. And I don't know at what point I figured out I can get these other books, like, I can wander away from this section reading about like historical.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: Children, Revolutionary War.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: And get to the romance. So what was your favorite genre Then was it mostly.
Excuse me?
[00:18:32] Speaker C: Well, I don't. I'm not even sure I knew. I mean because you know, I'm talking. We're talking the 80s, so I think most of them were pretty bodice ripping historicals and, and I, and I think you know, when I started reading more content. Well, let me just say I think that I read those kind of things up until I went to college and then I. Probably in college and my early career, I don't think I read romance novels that much. And then what brought me back to it was actually chick lit.
Bridget Jones diary. Oh.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: I didn't take a pause. So I remember in college, the thing about college is that I had a lot of time.
[00:19:17] Speaker C: You read during college.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: I went to the public library. I mean obviously we had got lots of college libraries with fiction, but it was all very.
[00:19:25] Speaker C: You amaze me.
Yeah. So I was. Had my hands full with the text. Yeah.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Oh, I didn't have time. I mean I made it in English, but that was. I would bike to the library, the public library in the cold. It was so cold.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: I've always gone to a public library. It doesn't matter what city or town I've lived in, I've always known where the library was. I've always had a library card for that place. I've always, when I've had free time, I've always gone and hung out there.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: It's always the first thing I've done.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: Public library has been. Has been my best friend all my life.
It was. Yeah. I mean my dad died when I was in my early 20s and I think that all of my memories are really, I mean of going to the library with him. I have so many wonderful memories. So even to this day I love to go to the library.
Public libraries are amazing.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: I have three cards. So I have one for here, one for Beverly Hills and one for the county.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: Beverly Hills, Wow.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: I got one when I first moved here. I found out that if you lived in, I don't know if it's the city or county. I'm sure it's probably the county. You can have one and they have a pretty good fiction librarian and they don't have as much rotation as LA does.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: So you can get books easier.
[00:20:44] Speaker C: I am going to look into that.
Yes.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: So they've changed though. When I first went there, they had a gold library card because it was Beverly Hills. And now it's.
I'd have to go look. It's something bland.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: There are some fun old school things about Beverly Hills, about About Los Angeles and Beverly Hills is one of those things that are. There's like some hidden gems in, in Beverly Hills? No.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: So the library is in a historic building. I was there a couple weeks ago and I really like it.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: So anyway, yeah, like they, they've just, they've been holding on to some things that, that are kind of old school retro cool. And it's like, it's very, very, very interesting. I mean there's a lot of Beverly Hills that I, I don't have any purpose for. But the library. Love it.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: No. So that one's good. And then I do go to some.
I have met a lot of librarians in the city of Los Angeles and some of them are better curators than others. And so the, the librarians who curate fiction that I like, I go to their branches.
[00:21:46] Speaker C: That's a really good idea.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: And they move around. I mean, I've met, it's, I've been here a long a while. So, you know, I mean, I learned a lot about that.
So what, but what made you. Okay. I didn't read historical. I don't know if they were not. I think, I don't know if the covers, like just never I've read maybe.
[00:22:04] Speaker C: I was always hiding the covers. I was always hiding the covers.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Covers.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: When I was reading them, they were, they were very bodice ripping, very, very.
I hate the covers as much as I could.
And.
Yeah. And then like I said, I kind of, well, you know, I went to, I, I became interested in screenwriting and I think I started reading scripts.
So that's that time period when I was reading scripts. And then in my early 30s, Bridget Jones came out and I just, I totally identified with that, that her situation was just like what I, you know, the working a job and not being given any credit for it. And then I, I liked the whole idea of the, a woman, like a young woman taking on her life and in, in the professional capacity and kind of, that the romance was kind of a secondary kind of thing. I liked that, that, that, that really resonated with me somehow. So. And then almost as soon as I got into Chiclet, they, they were like, don't, don't say Chiclet. Don't you get what are you doing? So, yeah, and I was, and I, I was always like, but, but that's it. But it feels really good. So, and then almost immediately following that, I think romance genres became much broader and there was sports romance and contemporary romance and, and, and, and, and also romantic suspense and the category romances and all of it.
I mean, I. I've read. I've read all of it. I. I don't think I've read a lot of inspirational romances. And I'm not always a paranormal reader, although I do get the appeal of the Romantasy. The current Romantasy.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Okay, so I. Okay, can I. So can I ask you about the script? Script writing or reading? Because it's the one.
Okay.
Having. Live. Living here. Whenever people meet me, they're like, oh, you're a writer. And I was like, yes. And I just had this conversation with some new person I met two weeks ago and she was like, oh. She was like, have. Are you writing on some show? And I was like, no, no, I write books. And there's always a pause.
And then.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: So I came to Los Angeles to go to film school at usc. And so that's. I. I learned how to.
I was at the University of Michigan, and they brought in this screenwriting professor for a weekend and he taught like his class in two days. And I was like, this is the most fun thing I've ever done. And that was it.
And that's what I wanted to do. I think I learned how that the mechanics of screenwriting a lot better than I was ever good at writing screenplays.
And I also think I was.
I think, I think the movies, the current movies that when I was. So I started working in the film business like mid-90s, mid-1990s, and I was out by the early 2000s. So in that era, women were never the target market for.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: Are they now? Did I miss something?
[00:25:54] Speaker C: No. I just want to make clear that that was that time period and we were not the target because, you know, the history of film, women, they started out making movies for women. I mean, it was the. His back in the old, you know, the silver screen that was. Those were movies for women.
So I think the things I was writing just had no, no audience. I mean, they weren't going to be made by it. And.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: But.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: And then I realized, oh, romance novels are written, read by women. And so I started finding other ways. I mean, because I wanted to be a writer. I just. I knew I wanted to be. Make my living as a writer.
So I started finding other ways to get paid to write. I wrote ad copy. I think I told you this. I wrote ad copy for a long time. I wrote for an entertainment trade publication.
I did a lot of. As social media advanced, I did a lot of content creation. I worked for a personal lubricant company making their content, which was a Lot of fun. And so I started finding ways to make a living as a writer and then started writing romance as on the side and.
And realizing that I. That's. Those were. The stories I wanted to tell, were about women, for women, and women are readers.
They are readers.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Okay, I have two questions, and these are completely. I don't even know where to start. A. Have you. Did you read the script for Promising Young Women?
[00:27:34] Speaker C: No, I haven't, but I know I should.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: It's the best script I've ever read.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: All right, let me write. I've got to write all things down, and I don't have pencils.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: It's okay. I might send it to you. Do you. It was like I woke up one morning and it was on the front page. I want to say, say a variety. Like.
Like, oh. And I literally was sitting in bed for two hours reading that. And that never happens. I usually go, I don't understand scripts. But it was the best script I ever read. The script made me better than the movie.
[00:28:03] Speaker C: I haven't read screenplays in so long, and I used to do it, you know, for. For a living. I used to read screenplays.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: So literally the best one ever. I may have recycled it because I did print it out eventually, because I was like, if they could all be this good, then.
Well, then. Then a lot of things. Okay, I have a different question. Have you. And this is so random. Have you ever considered writing the Harlequin movies? I mean, not Harlequin. Hallmark. Excuse me.
[00:28:31] Speaker C: Yes.
Yes. I love to write a Hallmark movie. I love Hallmark movies.
That. My first book for Tully, my first romance book for Tule. It's called. Oh, it's over. This side. This. This side. Okay. On Christmas Tree Cove, it was actually.
It has been optioned for the Hallmark Channel, and I.
I believe the options expired. But, yeah, my first book was optioned, and I was very excited, and I had.
Had written it with great hopes that it could be turned into a movie. Actually, all three books I wrote for Tully, I had great hopes. I. I feel like that's what screenwriting has informed. My. My writing is with cinematic pieces.
And. And because I think that screenwriting can also hobble. You hobble. Hobble your. Right, Your. Your. Your novel writing, because you don't write the emotions on the page.
That's the part that the actor contributes. You know, that's. It's a. It's a collaborative process when you're writing screenplays. So actor brings that to the page, and they really resist the fact that you would write what, what? Tell them what they're feeling.
So that took me a long time to get past that.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: They're so. To me, I'm not saying I don't. Okay to me, because I know people have feelings about this. There's such different ways of writing. Like the, I mean, okay, I've read Save the Cat. God knows. I mean, every, you know, so.
[00:30:10] Speaker C: Right. Yeah.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: I understand the beats, and I understand that stories do. Every story has to hit, okay, 95% of stories, there's probably, there's always the outliers, but 95% of stories have to hit those, like, sort of satisfactory beats so that people get what they're looking for out of a story.
But you're right about screenplays, and that's always the struggle I've had reading them because it's hard for me to envision. I'm not like a visual person, so it's hard for me to, like, add that other piece in.
And it's the reason, actually, I think I like a lot of, like, writer, director movies because I feel like at least I get the vision of one person and I know what they both wanted to say and see.
Whereas the more collaborative ones, I struggle because I feel like sometimes the visions are competing.
[00:31:00] Speaker C: Yes, yes. And I think, well, I think from a writer's point of view, the, the screenplays are very clean. And I think that novel writing that's clean is always something I, I, I is my catnip.
At the same time, I do feel like the, the emotions that need to be in there, the, the stuff aren't necessarily on the page. And I always have to go back and go, did I get it in there? Because there's not going to be, you know, I'm not gonna have Emma Thompson come along and figure out how to act this out. And I also, I also really get concerned that I'm going to, that my descriptive actions gonna sound a little bit too much like stage directions. And he exited the door.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: So I will say this, this is, this is horrible. The first book that I published, traditionally, it was the first book. The first edit I got was at some point the hero and heroin in a car. And she says, or he says, somebody's father died.
And the other character then asks something like, are we going in the door? Or what's for dinner, whatever. And the editor's like, somebody's father just died. And they just admitted that perhaps we should discuss the emotion or take that line out. I was like, oh, you're right.
It was pretty like, oh, God. Okay. That's brutal. It was brutal. It was brutal because I had. I don't even know what I was thinking when I wrote it. It's hard to say. I think I was moving them from one place to another.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: Right. They were not. They were ignoring that. They were ignoring whatever emotional moment had happened. And. Yeah, and you realize that that's what the actors are doing. They're ignoring it. But you have to write that down when somebody's reading it. And it's, it's a whole different, it's a whole different thing.
And it definitely, it, it definitely.
I mean, screenwriting informs my writing and I'm well aware of it. But there, there are things, there are, there are just different differences. It's, it's like, you know, writing for television and writing for radio, you know what the differences are and what you need to do and better. I think you have to use the strengths that the, what the strengths are in novel writing to your best advantage. That you, that you do get to put those emotions on the page.
That, that, that does become how people end up writing letters to you because they have, they have that emotion on the page and, and the way you make it feel them. Feel is exactly something from their memory. And I think that's, that's what I love about books.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Wait, so do you think that make, what do you make them feel is triggering something from their memory? Wait, maybe.
[00:33:58] Speaker C: I think that, I think that.
Well, let me put it this way. I think that for me, as an only child in a small town who is quiet and reading that when I, when I read books like Bridget Jones or I read other books, I guess, like, like Jane Eyre, I understood the loneliness. I got those emotions and I was like, oh, oh, somebody else has felt this before. And it made me feel like, belong.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: So you're making me think so I was talking to.
Oh my God, an actor once, like in a. Right before, it was right, right before, right after Covid. I remember that because I had a lot of time and he. A stage actor in la, and I was asking him about acting or something because I don't quite get it. I mean, I understand what acting is. I don't understand.
[00:34:55] Speaker C: No, I, I, that kind of bare naked thing. I could. Beyond me. Beyond me.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Exactly. It's like there's a couple things I just, I'm like, beyond my.
[00:35:05] Speaker C: There's something I know I couldn't do. Yes, yes, yes.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: But he was saying the reason he did it is because he had the opportunity to.
It helped him. How can I. I'm not Gonna even say it right. It helped him understand how different people feel in different situations and that. And I know. And I was like, oh. I think for the first time I was like, compassion.
Oh. Like, it really, like. I was like, oh, I think we're on zoom, of all things. But I was like, like, got it. It was so interesting because I don't necessarily think about it that I always think about it more of like.
I don't know even how to say this, like, not rehashing, but sort of.
It's more like a dollhouse for me, I think, where you put people in situations and then see what happens.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: I love that.
I love that.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: Less the other thing, but I. It's hard.
[00:36:07] Speaker C: You.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: You're like making me think about things I never think about. So that's interesting. So when.
What was the first book you published? I think I remember. I think I remember.
[00:36:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, no, it was called.
It's. It's not. It's actually that Kisses on a Paper air. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a paper airplane. It's a little novella.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: I remember it.
[00:36:26] Speaker C: Sorry.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: I don't know why I remember that.
[00:36:28] Speaker C: It was really fun. I actually really love that little book.
It just was really sweet. And I remember going. Reading it at one point at a.
At a bookstore and. And it just had one. I was. I was. And I like, you know how hard you work on your book and then you edit and you read it and you get copy edits and. And then it comes out and it's like this. And then I started reading it and I was just like, hey, this isn't like. While I'm reading it. This isn't so bad. And I could feel like the people in their seats leaning forward while I was reading it and. And I knew I was coming to a cliffhanger at the end of this chapter. And I. And I finished the chapter and I closed the book and I looked out and they were like, how can you stop there? And I was like, oh, my God, I've done something right. It was the first time I was like, oh my God, I did something right.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: So what year was that? I hate to ask you. I just don't. It's. I can see the book cover. There's so many book. Not so many.
[00:37:22] Speaker C: I know.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: I don't remember book covers. This one. I remember the blue and the airplane.
[00:37:26] Speaker C: Actually just got the rights back to it. And I'm. I'm horrib. Hoping to self publish in the. In next year.
And I think it was 2017.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: Oh my son would have been little, so. Yeah, I just remember that.
[00:37:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I love that little book. It was pink and purple and it was just a fun girl has a. Meets a celebrity on a plane and they.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: There was something I really liked about the COVID because. Covers.
[00:37:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that was a pretty cover. It was a really pretty cover. Yeah.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. So, yeah, sorry.
[00:38:03] Speaker C: Now that I've got the rights back, I'm like, how can I. One of the things I've been doing is like, I'll never get a cover that. That I love that much. How will I ever find it? A cover artist to, you know, to create something that's that attractive. And plus, I've been doing a lot of my own covers recently just because with AI, I'm. I'm. AI has become really tricky to. To, to find, I think as it's gotten better. So. And I. I would prefer to use an artist.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: Would you consider. I say this cognizant of the cost. Would you consider a cartoon cover? Because I think.
[00:38:39] Speaker C: Oh, I love cartoon covers. I love them. Yeah, no, it's my preference, actually.
I think they're. I think they're fun.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: I feel like you should do all your shopping in London then. The British love a cartoon.
[00:38:52] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes.
From your mouth to God. To God's ears. I would like to be doing all my shopping in London, thank you very much.
But unfortunately, life keeps happening and we don't. We don't get to Europe often enough. But. Yes, yes, I love a cartoon.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Well, it's just funny when I'm there. So.
Okay, so w.
It doesn't matter.
They often have a buy one, get the second book for one pence deal.
[00:39:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: I find them in airports. I find myself then buying two books and then lugging them through the airport to the annoyance of anybody with me.
[00:39:36] Speaker C: So should you have books? Do you have a book stack there and here?
[00:39:41] Speaker A: Of course. I mean, well, I just wanted to make sure.
[00:39:46] Speaker C: I just wanted to make sure because in my mind you did. I just wanted to verify. Okay.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I do carry them both ways, now that you say that, because actually, I was just talking to my son about this last night.
Heathrow has.
It is not a joy to fly through because they have a lot of issues with security and delays and whatnot because of the weather. It's like flying in San Francisco. You know what I mean? It's always foggy and. And then they schedule flights as if it's not always foggy anyway.
And LAX is a joy because it's. There's never weather. I mean 99.
[00:40:18] Speaker C: Because we don't have weather. Yeah, I know, it's a joy.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: But I do take books both ways. But what I have found, I mean, you know, the covers are diametrically opposed for the most part between here and there. But when I walk into the bookstore to get my buy one, get one free offer because I have a bogo with a book, they're still to this day. They started out with cartoon covers before we had them, and they still have them. They really love them. I actually have no feelings about it, but I do find them charming.
Yeah, like they're charming again.
[00:40:55] Speaker C: It kind of. I mean, it lets me use my imagination.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: That's true. That is true. That is true.
[00:41:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: Sorry.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: I got completely sidetracked.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: So.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: Okay, so the. After the, the kisses. I'm sorry, after that book, what.
What did you think? What was your plan? I mean, not that everybody has a plan. You can't.
[00:41:17] Speaker C: Oh, my plan. I did not have a plan.
Well, no, I. Yeah, I. I went.
Okay, so now we're going to go out into my.
That was 20. 2017, so 2018, I think 20. Just 2018 sound. 20, 2019, I think, was the last RWA in New York.
And. And I had went. Took a book out, was querying a book.
It was a contemporary romance set in.
It was. Had a lot of cars in it and music and I really. I really loved it.
I had a lot of agent interest.
I decided to go with a really big agent who ghosted me and never sent it out as far as I. I've never went on a mission as far as I know.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Oh, that's worse. I'm sorry.
[00:42:18] Speaker C: Immediately when we got back from.
From the rwa, the New York, we bought a house. We moved into it in October, and by February we were locked down in Covid.
And I kind of.
I. I was.
That querying experience just shut me down for a long time and. But I. I made. I was fortunate enough to have made a friends with a writing group out of Minneapolis.
It's called Smut University, as a matter of fact, and I can't recommend them enough.
And we met every morning over Zoom, every five days a week for two hours. We rode together throughout all of COVID lockdown. So for like basically two years.
It was amazing.
And I don't know if I would have gotten my act back together. I would have written again. I'm not. I'm not sure. I think I would have to. I just. I really felt like I got.
Yeah. Yeah, I just had the wing. The Wind just completely taken out of my sails when that happened with the agent. And I don't think, and I think looking back at it now being better informed and also was right when RWA was falling apart and I didn't have a lot of support, like it wasn't anybody I could turn to and say hey, this, this my agent, my agent ghosted me, this happened and it turns out it does. But I didn't have anybody and I, so I just let it go and got into writing and I just started writing and at some point I sent in a manuscript to Tuli Publishing, which is, you know, a California based publisher in San Juan Capistrano. And they liked what I had written but really wanted something that was more category romance, that was more hallmarky, that was a little more cinematic. And when they said that I was just like, all my bells and whistles went off and I went like, oh, I can, I can combine my screenwriting, like my love of Hallmark movies and romance into one thing and see how it goes. And so that's when I think I got a three book contract somewhere in that. And it was just because I was just getting up and writing every morning with this lovely supportive writing group that from. And my favorite part about this group, it was super diverse and they were like from all over the world. There was a woman from Germany and from Washington D.C. and all over and there were all these little faces every morning that greeted me and we were all just struggling through the COVID times together.
It was wonderful.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you this because then has your writing changed, do you think, from that initial book to now?
[00:45:23] Speaker C: Oh yeah, I think. Well, let me just say my first book that was published was about an 18 year old protagonist. And the books I'm writing now are I have a 65 year old protagonist and and so I think that that's reflective of my own heart and how I, I feel like I want like all, all of a sudden I, I want to write for older women for.
And especially it mirrors my own, you know, love life where I didn't fall in love until I was in my 40s and I didn't get married till I was 48. And I just feel like so often I see people say, you know, I, I don't think it's ever going to happen for me again. And it's like you don't know, you have different priorities but you don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe you can fall in love at any age or you can find love. My, my mom and her friends are all dating.
Why not? Why not?
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Why not?
[00:46:31] Speaker C: And isn't that what I mean? Romance was always about the heart, always about the happily ever after. And if we don't give women of older age romances, then, then there isn't a happily ever after.
So I, Yeah, that's what's changed, I think for me at least.
And I'm enjoying that. And I, I think there's probably less of an audience for it.
[00:47:00] Speaker A: And that's always the part I wonder about. And I do.
Okay, so my favorite age to write is mid-30s. I don't know why. I probably should be in therapy exploring that. I don't know why, but.
Well, because I, I'm like fascinated. I'm like, there's something about like the.
[00:47:20] Speaker C: Mid to late 30s.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: I like, like, yeah, love it.
[00:47:24] Speaker C: I feel like I was at my prime in my 30s.
I felt like I could do anything and well, I feel like I had.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: Almost enough knowledge, you know what I mean? Almost enough wisdom. Almost enough wisdom and still had a lot of energy.
[00:47:38] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Yes, agreed. And also I wasn't facing, I feel like in my 40s and 50s, I face harder questions than I was facing in my 30s.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: No, that's. Unfortunately, it may have just been that.
[00:47:55] Speaker C: I, because I wasn't a parent, but still I feel like I'm facing more of the harder questions now. And so, yeah, 30s, I loved 30s and I, I get it that energetic. Love it, love it. And I think that that's, I think most people want to read about that. Yeah.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Is there a reason why you didn't spend a lot of time in the new adult space? That age space, not the genre space days? I, Because I have my own feelings. Well, well, I guess I'll just say.
[00:48:19] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I loved coming of age stories, but I do think that new adult became I, and I read a lot of new adult, but I do think it became about first sexual experiences rather than, you know, where I was really enjoy. I, I enjoyed them as first experiences of all kinds. First job, first sexual experience, first dating experience, first decision making experiences. But it felt like it was really just going towards first sexual experiences. And I think that that was never something that I felt super strong at writing where bedroom situations. I just never felt like I, I don't feel like that's my strength.
I think I have a really good sense of humor and I don't know if that always transfers well into the writing bedroom scene.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: Okay, well, now I'm trying to think are there funny. I'd have to. Okay, that's I have to think about that sometimes.
[00:49:23] Speaker C: I think there are authors who can do it. But then I also think I don't. I don't think. I don't think it's for me. I don't think I can.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: So that's interesting, the first experiences, because I think my frustration with new. Okay, a. I think I would have loved new adult if I were that age when they were popular.
[00:49:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: But I can't. That can't. I can't make that. I can't make the past change. But I think my frustration became with. I felt some of the conflicts. If they had just waited 15 minutes to 10 years, they would realize the conflicts were not as important, not as big as they thought they were.
[00:49:59] Speaker C: Then I think questions, the big questions.
[00:50:02] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, life gets way more complicated than this.
[00:50:05] Speaker C: Oh, calm down, girl.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: Come on. Come on now.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:09] Speaker C: And I think that's why 35 is, is, is perfect because you are making changes, choices, and.
Yeah, absolutely. I love that.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: So what is it that you're with an older heroine or older protagonist? What kind of questions are they facing?
[00:50:27] Speaker C: They're facing third act questions.
You know what I've got.
I know.
Let me put it this way. The other day our cat sitter came over to our house, and this is like an innocuous way to.
To deal with the questions that I'm thinking about. But our cat sitter came over to our house and. And came for a visit. And she's. She's very lovely. And I said to her, and she's probably six years older than I am. And I said to her, I'm like, she was adopting a kitten. And I said, hey, what are you thinking about? You know, what are you gonna do about the kitten you're adopting? Because I feel like we've aged out, that we can no longer adopt kittens, that, you know, without wondering, are we going to outlive them?
And I think that that's one of the questions that we start to think of that people my age start to think about is like, I've got 20 years left, and hopefully I keep my mind about me during those 20 years. And so what do I want to do with that time? What. What exactly will fulfill me?
What will give me my happily ever after at the same time that, you know, you're facing your mortality?
[00:51:49] Speaker A: And so I feel like those are.
[00:51:50] Speaker C: Really big questions because a lot of women my age are single. They're. They. They do want to fall in love. At the same time, you get some really pretty big Questions coming up.
And so I find that. I find that that's right in my wheelhouse, I guess, because that's the stuff I'm thinking about, you know, is asking our cat sitter, hey, what are you doing at. You know, and she had a plan. What she. She was adopting this kitten, and she'd already made a plan with, you know, the person who was executing her will, and she was going to leave some money to. To make sure this cat that was taken care of after, you know, if anything happened. And I thought, oh, okay, these are the things we're thinking about. And it sounds, you know, small, but it's actually kind of big.
[00:52:40] Speaker A: Okay, so then I have a different question because, okay, so really long story short, up until a couple of years ago, I never watched reality television. It was just not a thing.
And I read a nonfiction book about it, and I realized it.
I mean, given our president, it apparently had changed the country in a way that I was unaware because apparently I live in a hole in the ground, which is fine.
So I started watching reality television a couple years ago, and I've only watched, like, two shows, and they're both like, I guess, dating marriage romance shows, I guess. And that's the category, as opposed to, like, Survivor or something, which I guess is a different category.
What I'm sort of fascinated by. So I woke up this morning and there's a new drop of the show called Married at First Sight, which I don't recommend for, like, your brain, you know, stimulation.
But this is the first season, I guess, that they're including older couples, and so they're like, in their 50s. One is, like, my age, and I'm like, oh, I hope I don't look that old. So you look, and you're like.
[00:53:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: Anyway, so they're in their 50s, in 60s, but, like, early 60s.
And what I'm watching is the emotional unavailability of some men in our generation. And I think, okay, I could understand being single and wanting to fall in love again, but the men have not.
These men, I mean, business tv, have not progressed in the same way. And I was thinking, if I were to write or read a book about it, would the journey be like, like, trying to find that one emotionally available person the most, not stuck in this, like, patriarchal norms. Like, he's talking about change. They're talking about changing her name. She's like, 50. And she was like, this is a lot of forms. And I was like, I wouldn't be bothered with this. I'm like, like, call my Credit card company and Social Security.
[00:54:35] Speaker C: God. Oh, you mean she was getting married? Yeah. No. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what that is. It's a pain in the butt. Yeah.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: I've never changed my name, so I don't know. I mean, I mean, I understand the concept. I just have never done.
[00:54:50] Speaker C: I was a late in life marriage. Marriage. And I was my dad's only child. And I didn't want to get rid of my. My maiden name because. Yeah, that was it. So, yeah, I get, I get, I get what she's saying. Yeah.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: But also the emotional unavailability. And I was like, oh, well, he's my age and he's acting the same as people my age. And I was like, oh. So when you're writing these older women, seemingly like those heterosexual romance, how are you handling the men, given the era in which they grew up?
[00:55:24] Speaker C: Yeah. Isn't that the truth? Well, I do wonder. I have so many questions, which is why I'm writing a murder.
Yeah, yeah. It's a problem.
And it's. It's a. It's definitely a problem. And. And so it becomes what. What will make these women happy? I mean.
Yeah. And my mom talks about. My mom's 87 and she, she and her friends date, but she's like, I don't. I don't want to get married again. And I think that that's.
That. I think that's where a lot of women between my age and my mom's age are at. They want to date, they want to go out, they want to have a glass of wine, they want to go to the movies, they want to enjoy that. That closeness, that camaraderie. But they also want their space because I think they do recognize exactly what you're saying. They may have evolved further along than their male counterparts.
[00:56:32] Speaker A: No, I actually have a friend. I was actually talking to her yesterday. Not about this. We were talking about health insurance.
[00:56:36] Speaker C: Because it's, again, another thing that you're thinking about. Yeah. Health insurance. Oh, my God. Yeah.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: But separate. Apart from open enrollment period.
Her mom is dating, so her, her parents got divorced late in life and her mom is dating, and they. So upon divorce, they sold the house, you know, because California, it's a lot to care for. And they moved into, I guess, a retirement community somewhere by the beach. I don't. I don't know about retirement communities yet. And what is interesting is that her mom and her friends are dating. They're in their late 70s, early 80s.
[00:57:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:09] Speaker A: And they're like, we're Having dinner. I want to go dancing. I want to have a glass of wine. And then he's got to go home. And the men are like, well, why don't you want to live together? And they're like, I don't want to share money with you, and I don't want to clean up after you.
And.
And it's true. Fascinating to me because they're getting the best. And the men are like. But that. They're like, but my needs are not being met. And I'm thinking, I think some of these things you're going to have to meet your own needs.
I said, this is me editorializing behind. I'm not out there talking to them.
[00:57:38] Speaker C: It's very. It's very interesting. It's very interesting of what your needs are as a. Like, what your needs are as you age as. That they change. They change.
And it's very interesting.
[00:57:54] Speaker A: It's just interesting because I'm watching women finally say. And they're not even. They're a whole generation older than. Than me finally saying, I think I'm done with my caretaking role.
[00:58:05] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: And the men are like, wait, what?
And it's like, wait, you're done? And they're like, yeah, yeah, we're done.
[00:58:14] Speaker C: No, we're not doing that anymore. Nope. The energy. And I think that the energy that I have will be for me and perhaps the pet that I'm living with who will also be receiving the. Be on the receiving end of whatever monies I am leaving behind.
So thank you, sir, and let's go dancing.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's actually. This is so off the cuff, but it's random. But last summer I saw a.
Let me say this. You know, I'm in Budapest in the summer, and I go to a lot of photography, museums, whatever.
[00:58:48] Speaker C: It's my thing.
[00:58:49] Speaker A: And one of the shows. So every year they have all these different prizes. And this is like a prize for, like, storytelling in the. Like, within Hungary or whatever. So it was this. This child, like, adult child, like, he's in his 40s or 50s, did a photo essay of his mother taking care of his father while his father was dying.
[00:59:10] Speaker C: Oh, dear.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: So very sad, but quite compelling. But what I was fascinated by the essay is that, you know how when we were growing up, often, at least in my life, when letters came addressed to, like, my grandmother, grandmothers, or maybe my mother, it would be Mrs.
[00:59:34] Speaker C: I know exactly what you're saying.
[00:59:35] Speaker A: Cases, Mrs. Joseph, whatever.
[00:59:37] Speaker C: So.
[00:59:39] Speaker A: And the title in the exhibit, he called her Mrs. Whatever his name was Mrs. Joseph whatever.
And I realized, I watched, I look at the entire exhibit and she's doing all the caretaking and he's like, dying. It's unfortunate, but I realized the only two things I knew about her is that she got her nails done because her nails were flawless, like in their 80s, and that she was doing this caretaking, but at no point, I didn't.
[01:00:04] Speaker B: Even know her name.
[01:00:08] Speaker A: And I was like, but I think.
[01:00:10] Speaker C: There was a whole generation of women who wanted desperately to shed their identity and become that. That wife that, that caretaker that, that they wanted to shed that. And, and thank God she kept her nails, I guess.
But it just.
Yeah, I.
Yes. And you. And she doesn't. She doesn't keep that. She didn't keep her. Her name.
Yeah.
Tied up with his.
[01:00:43] Speaker A: But even the son who was doing the thing, and I think in his little essay beforehand, he was talking about how he was honoring his mother. And I was like, but is her name Natalie? Is her name Gloria? Like, is her name. I mean, it would have been something Hungarian like Maria or something, or Teresa or something, but I was like, I don't even know her name. And I was like, I have some thoughts about that, but I. Starting to feel like women who are older want to.
Are more interested in keeping or even learning more about their identity and not being necessarily after the gray divorce or something, or even being single, not necessarily being that identity being swallowed up.
[01:01:23] Speaker C: I think they're just interested in living in these last.
The third act. They want a full life.
And I find that what, what you, what you just said reminds me of when I worked in Hollywood and for the most part I worked as someone's assistant.
And I remember a friend of mine getting really frustrated and slamming down the phone because of the way she was being treated by her very high powered boss and saying, God damn it, I just want a job where I don't have somebody else's name in the title.
[01:01:55] Speaker A: And.
[01:01:58] Speaker C: I think that that's the same thing for that woman. It's like, yeah, I just want a life with that doesn't have somebody else's name for mine.
Yeah.
[01:02:10] Speaker A: Although I did wake up. This is so off topic. And then I'm gonna ask you a different question, but I did wake up this morning a little, little aggravation because so the, the recent. So I'm from New York City, so I have a somewhat. Maybe more than a passing interest, although everybody does in the mayoral election.
So the mayor elect just announced his transition team and all the headlines are all female transition team. And I Thought so if he had four men behind him with the. Would the headline be all male transition team? It would not.
[01:02:42] Speaker C: This women also happen to be very formidable.
[01:02:45] Speaker A: I know and I was like just.
[01:02:47] Speaker C: Very powerful and have held really that's not the headline about most of them is. Is what they have done and why he's chosen. Chosen them is a really important thing. And I don't think it's because they're women. I think it's what they've. They've done and managed to accomplish.
[01:03:03] Speaker A: But I was a little, little aggro.
[01:03:08] Speaker C: Got it.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: So let me ask you this and I don't mean this in the way it's going to sound. I'm not like presaging your death but in your third act of writing. I'll think of it this way. What is it? What are the kind of stories do you think you want to tell going forward?
[01:03:23] Speaker C: Yeah. So I'm, I've come around to this whole golden age of mystery which kind of cracks me up that I've come back to Agatha Christ.
[01:03:32] Speaker A: Like you came back to where you.
[01:03:33] Speaker C: Started these years that I've come back to her and, and, and, and also to I think in a way embracing Ms. Marple who always seemed like a little old lady when I was younger and now just seems like a smart chicken.
And I kind of love the fact that I'm getting to embrace that. I don't. You know what? Again I feel like somebody said to me write the book of your heart. So I'm writing. I wrote the book of my heart that just happens to have a 55 year old and a 65 year old.
Two, two women. Two women who have hated each other all their lives who have to join forces to solve a murder or else they're going to lose their career in Hollywood.
So and I've, I've, I've had nothing but pleasure writing it and I am once again querying and I, I guess I finally, I feel like that's where I'm at is like I'm coming back around again. Like it keeps. I'm coming back to Agatha Christie. I'm coming back to querying and maybe, maybe that's a good thing is know.
[01:04:41] Speaker A: And also a little bit of Hollywood magic.
[01:04:43] Speaker C: I heard it and, and, and, and we all like I think that that's what writing this writing career is, is in, in, in life also is that you have to ride the highs and the lows that you are going to go through patches where the high powered agent you think you have is going to ghost you and you're going to end up underneath your desk not knowing whether you should keep going or not. And, and, and, and either you do or you don't. And I have kept writing.
I am also self publishing some novellas right now and I hope I'm kind of like, well, if this querying thing doesn't work out, then I think I want to do something else, some sort of self publishing. And I'm not sure what that's going to look like, but I do feel like it's more in the mystery field than in, in romance. There's yeah. Mysteries coming to the fore for me and maybe that's because the big questions now need to be answered in the, in the third act and, and things do seem more mysterious because these are huge questions now.
Yeah, but I, I, I do love writing. I also, I am, I am grateful for all the people that have helped me that have mentored me. I mean I didn't start like this kind of writing until I was in my 40s.
And I am also really, really, really enjoy working with being a part of talking to younger writers that might. My, like my core writing group now is a woman who's amazing, who's in her late 30s and another amazing writers who, who's in her late 20s. And I, I love getting their input. I love, I love listening to them. I love, I love what they're doing.
And so I feel like it all just like comes around and we all have such different perspectives, yet we have the same feelings about it. So, so it's, it's, Yeah, I guess that's, I guess that's I'm querying and that, that's all I know it's very painful. That's, that's, that's where I'm at.
I don't know if it's a good thing.
[01:07:12] Speaker A: But yeah, I'm gonna be honest. I don't know if it gets better. I've, that's, I know, I don't, I.
[01:07:21] Speaker C: I state of publishing right now. I just don't, I don't know.
But I know that I have always loved stories and storytelling and I still want to try.
So here I am.
[01:07:36] Speaker A: You're giving us all hope because I mean, look, 95% of the conversations I have are about the state of publishing, but they were 15 years ago and I don't know if that's going to change. And I'm not saying there's some sea changes that are just, just, I, I.
[01:07:53] Speaker C: Feel like AI is that I think have to happen that I just hope benefits writers and not.
[01:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like the sea change of AI is a slightly different than ebooks. Ebooks democratize things in a lot of ways. I'm not sure what the result of, like, large language models will be on. Right. I mean, I just don't know.
Yeah, but people didn't know with ebooks. But it, that's just, that's just, that's to me, such a different sort of change. But I mean, I guess we have to roll with it because what are the other options?
[01:08:27] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We're dealing with forces larger than ourselves. And, and also I, I would love to see a point where, you know, we're not all having to use one kind of space to sell books from. And if you don't use that one particular space, that one behemoth that you're, you're nowhere that there be more, more spaces. And yeah, it, it's scary out there. And I, I, I, I don't, I don't exactly feel encouraging. The only thing I feel encouraged about is the fact that I still read books that are really good and that opened my eyes to new places and new things and new perspectives. And I crave that more now than ever.
[01:09:19] Speaker A: I think we all do. I mean, I'm not lying. I think that we all do. So with that, I want to thank you so, so much for taking the time in your sunny home to come and chat.
[01:09:30] Speaker C: Such a thrill for me to see you and to be here. I thank you so much for asking me. I really appreciate it.
[01:09:38] Speaker A: I appreciate it. I can't really remember your first book. There's so many. There's a few people who's like, first.
[01:09:43] Speaker C: I know. I can't either.
[01:09:45] Speaker A: It's imprinted on my brain. I don't know what it is.
[01:09:47] Speaker C: I'm like, thank you. Thank you. And I think about you every summer in Budapest because my husband and I have become huge F1 fans.
So every year I see the Hungarian GP, the Hunger Ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm always like, oh, I wonder if she's over there.
[01:10:07] Speaker A: And it's a little too hot for me to be outside at this age in my life. So somebody asked me about that and like, the music festival, and I was like, like, I don't know, 10 years ago more. So now it's a little hot.
[01:10:20] Speaker C: We talk about, you know, we, I mean, that's of course like a fantasy to go to the F. One of the F1s and. But the, it's. They're very expensive and I look at it and there's all those people together and you've paid a lot of money to be in that huge space with a lot of people. And I'm like, maybe I'll watch it on television.
[01:10:38] Speaker A: Maybe I'll watch it on like the Olympics. Okay, I'm gonna be honest. And then I really actually have to go. But the huge gathering, what they do in Budapest is because a lot of people can't afford it and obviously the tickets are limited and they sell it really quickly because people fly from all over Europe and it's obviously not that far to fly, but they have these huge outdoor screenings now for that and the Olympics and obviously soccer or football.
And that is a more pleasurable way to enjoy it. So it's social and the screens are huge and there's like food and it's very carnival.
But I, I, for me, this has become a way, I've enjoyed things a little bit more. So I get the social aspect without having to go to the arena.
[01:11:19] Speaker C: But, you know, I get it. I hear what you're saying. Yeah.
Well, it's just great to see. You look just as beautiful as ever. And I'm glad you're doing these podcasts. Yes. And I wish you nothing but success.
[01:11:34] Speaker B: A time to throw with me, your host, Amy Austin. If you enjoy today's episode, I'll help you share, rate and leave a five star review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You'll help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm an author. My latest book, His Last Mystery is out now. Check out the five star reviews. Get your copy before someone else spoils the twist. I'm also the author of the Nicole Long series of regal thrillers. The first four books in the series are now live. You can download outcry, Witness Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. You can follow me me on substack, Instagram, Blue Sky, Facebook and TikTok all at Legal Thriller Author One Long word. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
