Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to a Time 2 Thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. I'm gonna tell you, I have to laugh because of course the moment I sit down to record, the phone rings and it's a doctor's office. And I figure if I don't answer, I may never hear from them again.
I'm always trying to like re up my physical therapy because I'm unwilling to give up high impact exercise even at my age. All that said, it is October and I know I've been away a little bit.
I should broken this podcast up into seasons and maybe I will go back and do that, but it's hard to record over the summer with the differing time zones.
And while I always want to interview my European authors, they're on vacation because they have vacation.
So it's been a minute, but I'm back with new interviews and in the meantime, let me see. So His Last Mistress came out in April and if you haven't read, please pick up a copy. I love this book a lot.
It's like the culmination of all the years of writing coming to fruition and being able to tell a story from beginning to end in a way that I like.
So normally I hate certain parts of a book and I think I don't hate any parts of this book and that 30 books in people, let me tell you, that is an achievement also. So I did finish the next book. I don't know when it will be coming out. I'm trying some different things and we will see. But keep your eyes peeled for pre orders or news or information on that book and you'll see it when it's posted. Speaking of, you can follow me. I am legal thriller author everywhere except Twitter. I'm not on Twitter. I gave it up in 2016 and I'm never going back, so.
But I'm on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram. I'm on Instagram too much and TikTok as well. Although I don't post there that often because I can't feed that algorithm. I really can't.
So this month I have the pleasure of speaking with USA Today best selling author Chris Keniston. I met Chris and I think we talked about this in the podcast years ago we used to have in a conference we used to call the actually the UNCON for authors up in San Francisco starting maybe 2016, 2017, something like that. And of course it sort of went by the wayside during COVID but it was a great time to sit around with some really great indie authors figuring out better ways, ways to run our author business.
What made Chris unique is that she is an extrovert in a world of introverts. So Chris is outspoken and one of the things I like about that though is that she's super savvy and takes no bs.
I think a lot of us, and this may be a trait of being like a woman in our current world, second and triple guess ourselves before making a decision.
And I don't think Chris suffers that particular affliction.
So it's great to have different voices, especially when the rest of us are like over here cowering in a corner and she's like, cut it out, do it up, do something different.
And we at least maybe I could always use more voices like that.
So Chris has an interesting story.
I always wondered how she ended up in Texas and now I know.
So without further ado, let's get to it. You know how it is. I have so many questions.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: Hi and welcome to A Time to Thrill.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: It's me, your host, Amy Austin.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: This month I have the delight of speaking with USA Today best selling author Chris Keniston. Icrisk. Hi Amy, how are you?
[00:04:16] Speaker D: I'm actually doing quite well under the circumstances.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: So I'm gonna ask you this because I don't know, is it hot in Dallas? Because God knows it's hot here in LA, right?
[00:04:26] Speaker D: Actually, we consider it cool. It's in the low 90s.
Okay.
It is. September is one of those months where you could get anything, but usually it's in the 90s. We've had a few days in the 80s which has been just phenomenal.
But some years it those 100 degree days from August linger and we're very thankful that they're not lingering this this September. So we're all very content.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Okay, that's hotter than I could tolerate. So, so I will say this. So I usually tell people I usually do this in the intro, but I haven't recorded the intro yet. Obviously I met you. I believe you're gonna get me wrong. I think in San Francisco, before COVID when we used to go to the indie intensives up and for me like just one flight north, but in Northern California.
And as we were discussing beforehand, you're an extrovert and you know that writers are rooms full of introverts who would rather not. You know, I think sometimes they're like, we'd rather not. But in order to further like our business, sitting at home alone as a silo was not necessarily effective.
So going out and talking to other writers was really Helpful. And at that time, during the indie game was game changing often.
So what I know about you is that you're from New York, I'm from New York. I was born and raised in Brooklyn. But you're from New York. How did you end up outside of New York? I mean, I know we used to call it like the.
The New York inertia because people can't leave.
[00:06:04] Speaker D: Okay. I was on my way to Australia.
I had a cousin who married an Australian. And Australia was looking for all sorts of business people, teachers, what have you.
And I had gone to college for a year in San Francisco and loved it. But San Francisco was very expensive.
Housing was flying through the roof. In those days, houses were literally jumping in value, almost doubling every year. It was insane. And New York was busy and dirty and crowded, and I was sick of potholes and winter and slush.
And I said, I'm gonna move. And I thought, you know what? Let's go to Australia.
But I want to see everything in the United States there is to see before I get there, because Lord knows when I'm going to come back. That's all far trip and it's not cheap and yada yada, yada, yada.
So I started driving places that I had always wanted to go.
The Amish country in Pennsylvania, Blue Ridge Mountains, Smoky Mountains, New Orleans, Houston and NASA. And I stopped in Dallas because I wanted to see if it was anything like the TV show.
And everywhere I went, I either stayed with friends I'd known from college or from church or something. And I stayed with a gal from church, and I was waiting for a package from my mother, and it hadn't gotten here yet.
So I was like, well, let me go to work part time, you know, do a. One of those temp jobs to get a little bit of money while I'm waiting for the stupid package. Well, I had. Wouldn't get paid till Friday, so I had to work the whole week. Well, by the end of the week, I'd made friends, I'd gone to church. I'd discovered housing is dirt cheap. And you. Next thing I know, I'm. I'm driving towards Amarillo, planning to come back for Christmas maybe. And I thought, that's stupid. I just turned around and came back, and I've never left.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Okay.
[00:08:05] Speaker D: That's not what you expected?
No.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: I mean, I drove across the US once when I was like 22. I don't know.
I could never do it again. It was fine. Like, I was like, we're good. Like I.
I saw the art.
[00:08:22] Speaker D: I forgot to tell you. Not only am I an extrovert, I'm a gypsy.
My mother used to joke with her friends. She would say, I have three children.
My daughter, the doctor, my son the lawyer, and my daughter the gypsy. Three guesses which one I am.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Your accent came.
That was very good.
[00:08:45] Speaker D: I did that on purpose.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: No, it reminds me of, well, all people I grew up with. I don't have an accent. And I remember people would meet me and they're like, you don't have an accent. I was like, you can come meet my family. Like, it's. We're good. Like, I don't need to have it.
[00:08:57] Speaker D: My husband used to tease me all the time. He'd say to me, you know, when you get off the phone with your friends in New York, your New York accent is thicker than it ever was when you lived there.
So do you think I could do New York? I just don't do it on a normal basis.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: No. Occasionally I say coffee wrong at my son's, like, did you just say coffee? I'm like, stop talking.
[00:09:20] Speaker D: So I never say coffee. I always say coffee. I've said coffee since 1981 when I went to school in University of San Francisco. Everybody kept recognizing my New York accent. I said, oh, we're gonna fix that. And it became chocolate and coffee.
And the only thing I could never not say, like a New Yorker was New York. I have no idea what I did, but every time I went to New York, they, oh, well, I couldn't get. I couldn't un.
Yankee New York. No.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: But I still. I. I will say this. I. There was an article in the New York Times years ago. I. One day I'll find it again, where they talked about the phrases that people say. Because my son points it out because he was like, I always say, oh, I'm gonna go stand online. And he was like, you know, everybody else says stand in line.
[00:10:05] Speaker D: And I was like, new Yorkers say online. Yep.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: And I was like, who says stand in line? Like, I guess I never heard it, because I heard what I heard.
[00:10:13] Speaker D: New Yorkers, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, the tri state area.
We're the only ones who stand online.
I get more people sending me corrections when I write and a story, oh, go get online over there. And. And they're like, it's in line. And I'm like, all right, I'll change it. Because 49 out of 47 out of 50 states say in line.
But, no, I know what I was saying, and I meant to Say it. No. Right?
Yeah.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: No. So that's.
I learned there's. There's like 10 of them. And I was like, got it. Okay. But it's really hard because, like, even so, my son, like, was born and raised here, which, you know, I have my own feelings about. But the majority of the parents, like, in his elementary school, were New York transplants.
So, like, as far as I was concerned, we were like, okay, this is how it's gonna be. And it was only, like, I was in the car with them, and to me, they all sound like Pauly Shore in the backse. And I'm like, why do you talk this way? Like, what is wrong with you?
So. And he insists that he doesn't have an accent, but they all, like. They just say. They speak so slowly, and it's always like, cool. I'm like, stop, stop.
[00:11:29] Speaker D: But here's a story that's got nothing to do with writing. But after 9, 11, I took my family back to New York. York. Or maybe it was for my class reunion. I went back to New York. My daughter was, you know, a preteen or a young teen, and she was always complaining about her Yankee mom in Texas.
And we were staying with some friends, and Diane was doing the same things I did with my kids. And I said, see? Aunt Diane does it, too. It's not just your mother's truth. Well, she's your best friend. Of course you're alike. And then we'd go visit other people, and of course they'd all be, you know, treating their kids the same way I treated mine. And after watching, she goes, oh, my God, you're all alike.
Honey, I've been telling you for years, your mother's not crazy. She's just a New Yorker.
No.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: So.
No, you remind me. So this summer, so we spend the summers in Hungary, and this summer we were in Hungary, and he hangs out with our other kids, and. Which is fine. Like, I don't. Great. But he was like, I want to go to this water park, and the other parents are going to be there. And he was like, but you'll like them because they're New Yorkers.
It's like, are you trying to sell me? And I get there, and I was like, oh, these people. I was like, you're right. I'm like, these are absolutely regular people.
Regular people. So we're good.
But he.
[00:12:57] Speaker D: We're a different breed. Let me tell you.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: He sees it in other parents, which is interesting to me, because I feel like I'm not.
Well, I'm not Gonna. I. I feel like I'm not like that. I'm just like, you know me. But clearly it's a pattern, so. Okay, so. I can't believe that's how you got to Dallas. Like, I.
That's.
I have not made any. I'm. I just showed you my rulebook. Like, I don't make decisions that are like that. And that's. That's fascinating. So you.
How did you.
How did you build a life? Like, that's just such a.
I mean, I moved. Like, I moved to la, but it was like, you know, my ex had a job, and, you know, we bought a house, and it was all very, like, structured.
[00:13:41] Speaker D: I was working temporary, so I had work. That was not a problem. I was staying with my friend, and so I said, all right, well, I'll. I'll.
I'll keep working and I'll find a place to live. And we had some. Some of the friends I'd made shared a house, and one of the roommates was moving out, and so they had a spare room. So I moved in there and I worked temp. And, like, my second or third assignment was a woman in an interior decorator. And when I lived in New York after college, I worked for a home furnishings designer called Tricia Gilt. She was British.
And I worked on her Fifth Avenue office.
I was the publicity liaison.
And I did, you know, between photo shoots and manufacturers and whatnot. And so it was kind of in my wheelhouse to some extent.
And so after a week of there as a temp, she was like, I want you to work for me permanently. And so we had to do a little negotiating with the temp society to let me stay. And that was my job for a couple of years.
And so it was pretty cake. And then eventually I moved out of the. The. Everybody started moving away, and I got my own apartment and.
And then, you know, another year. So later I wound up getting married, and eventually we bought a house and we had kids, and I'm still married and I still have a house.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: So. Is the rest of your family still in New York then?
[00:15:12] Speaker D: I never had a big family.
My. I'm an only child.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: One of the things I did as an only child to entertain myself when there was nobody to entertain me was I ended up reading books. So that was like the biggest, like, introduction, because, I mean, at some point nobody, you know, nobody's going to entertain you. And at some point you're like, okay, so what else can I do? And then you start reading the books in the house and Then in my case, you go to the library and, you know, like, the book of Public library in your world, Nancy Drew couldn't.
[00:15:39] Speaker D: Get enough of her.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: So I ask you this because I don't know. We had Nancy Drew, but maybe. No. Well, first of all, my grandmother had the Hardy Boys. And so I read those, and they were. They were blue. I remember this. And the blue hardback, and then Nancy Drew. But there were fewer of them. But I don't have a sense of, like. I think the books she had were, like, from the 50s. Like, as a adult. I actually just don't know the answer to this.
But there were. I read the Hardy Boys, and then I read Nancy Drew, and. But I think I. My grandmother may have tapped out at, like, 20 books. You know what I mean? Like, at some point, they stopped buying them, or that's what she had had. And then I was like, okay, what.
[00:16:18] Speaker D: Else I had was I could have just kept reading and reading and reading and reading. And my mother just couldn't afford to keep up with me.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Did you go to the public library?
[00:16:28] Speaker D: I mean, she just couldn't afford to keep up with me.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's when I went to the Brooklyn Public Library. So there was. Well, there's the main branch, which is the big one. But there was, like, a little. A little one maybe four blocks from my house when I was a kid. And that's where.
Well, I discovered a. There's a lot of books that I didn't like and librarians who introduced me to books that I could like, which was the. Because I remember going there, and I was like, there's a lot of stuff here that I'm not interested in. Like, this is not exactly.
[00:17:00] Speaker D: If my mother had thought to do that, it probably would have worked well, but she didn't.
The interesting thing about the Nancy Drew is I don't know how old. I Could have been 10, 12, somewhere in there.
I don't know. Could have been 13. I have 14. I have no idea. I just remember that I was bored and I had nothing else to read. I said, I'm gonna write a mystery.
And I sat down and I started to write this story. I wish I still had it.
And I got, you know, page maybe two, and somebody said.
And I had the person look in the corner at this unusual piece of furniture that. I don't remember what it was. It was a combination stove and dresser. I don't know what the hell I'd made up, but I made up something.
And I remember thinking, I wonder what the Hell, that's going to turn out to be. We'll figure it out later. And I kept writing and I stopped. I never finished a story, never tried again, didn't do a darn thing until, I don't know, 15 years ago.
And I'm just laughing because I was a pantser at 12 and I'm still.
I just was like, you know, even back then, I didn't know what I was doing. I said, I'll figure it out later. And that's exactly how I write. I just vomit whatever winds up on the page and figure out later. And. And thankfully, even under these circumstances, later on, when I finally figure out what's happening, I'm like, oh. And I set that up and I didn't even know it. Isn't this wonderful?
[00:18:35] Speaker B: Do really think that the brain. Because I'm a panther, so I don't know, but I really think the brain must work in the background and it must be keeping a bigger picture that I cannot bring to my consciousness to the save my life. But I. I have to believe that because I. Like when, like when you get edits or something and they're like, oh, well, you know, makes sense. And I was like, yeah, you know, when I was sitting here by myself, I was, you know, sometimes I'm just. Well, basically I get up and I'm just really frustrated because I'm like, not only. I had like a kernel of an idea when I sat down. I'm now 20,000 words in. I have nothing else. And who knows what's going to happen. And it used to scare me. It doesn't scare me anymore because I know that books get done. But in the beginning I was like, this is too hard. Like, this is. There's no reason for this. And so I went through all the books, like how to write fiction and how to like, outline and all of the things. None of it.
I was like, this is not interesting to me. Like, I'm not going to write a book. If I have to write a book in advance of writing a book, like I'm never going to do.
[00:19:33] Speaker D: Yeah, I can't do that. I can't think ahead. I can't. If I have to plan it, it comes very boring. The, The.
And as far as all those reading of instruction books, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Gallup Personality Test. I forget what it's. It's called something else as well.
And a lot of companies use this to determine what their employee strengths are.
And the concept being you take what somebody's good at, and you give them more to do to improve that. Instead of wasting your time teaching somebody who is incompetent in one thing and trying to make them mediocre, acceptable in that field, focus on the things they actually are good at. And there are 34 traits, and one of those traits is a learner. Somebody who likes classes, likes, you know, reading instruction manuals, likes, you know, they just want to learn, learn, learn everything in academia, One of my dearest author friends is. Is a learner. She's a number three learner. She. Which would explain why she has a law degree in English and in French in two different countries.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: And.
[00:20:44] Speaker D: And she's always taking webinars and, you know, always signing up for classes and always reading articles and always reading books and always sending it to me. Did you look at that? No, not yet. I glanced at it. Have you, Debbie? Have you? She made me take this personality test. Turns out, out of 34, my number 34 is learner.
She never sent me another link again.
I could care less what somebody else's opinion is.
I could care. I. I don't want to sit through a class. I'm like, just give me the bullet points. Get. You know, I'm. I'm not. I'm not a learner now. I'm not. That doesn't mean I don't want to learn new things. I don't want to go through academia to learn it. I don't want to go back and get a degree in fine arts. I don't want to go back and get. If I could have become a lawyer by going into a law firm and apprenticing for seven or eight years, I could have done that. But the thought of spending three years in a classroom memorizing books just.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: I'm not gonna say it's enjoyable. Like, I'm not selling that. Like, it's so. But then how did you go from mystery? Because. Okay, the thing I remember about you, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that when I met you talked about.
[00:21:59] Speaker D: Having been like, I was a realtor and my family business was selling.
My family business was we sold window cleaning equipment. It.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: That's what it was.
[00:22:11] Speaker D: So if you ever saw somebody hanging from a building, we probably sold them what they were using. If you saw somebody, you know, scrubbing windows in a shopping mall, we. In. In this area, we sold it to them. There's only five companies in the country who did that, and we were one of them.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: But how did you go from, like, trying to write your first Mystery. And I look a lot of us did.
[00:22:31] Speaker D: I. I never actually tried to write a mystery. I mean, when I was 12, I did.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:35] Speaker D: What happened was I had broken my ankle and. Well, no, let's back up even further.
I was an avid fan of the TV show Jag.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[00:22:47] Speaker D: David James Elliott from 1995 to 2005.
I picked it up in season seven and I was totally hooked.
And I hated what the writers were doing, so I used to write little stories to fix the mess that they were making of the show and, you know, fan fiction.
And then I broke my ankle and I couldn't walk. I was in a boot long time. I was in South America selling, helping my mom sell my grandmother's house.
And I was reading a book by Nora Roberts.
And when I got to the end, I wanted to throw the damn thing against the wall.
I was like, she phoned that ending in. She must have hit her word count and just rushed in one chapter. She closed up everything that really needed three or four capture chapters to properly wind up. I was like, I can write a better book than this. So I did. I pulled out my laptop and I started writing.
And that book is actually published, called Homecoming.
It was very much. I. I tried to rewrite her book. Well, you know, I says, well, I can't do exactly what she did. That's plagiarism.
So I tweaked it, you know, okay, they're not in Hawaii. I'm in South America. We'll do South America. It's an exotic place. And I can't have the moaning in airline. I can have morning, a newspaper. And.
And of course, by the first.
By the first chapter, the book was nothing like hers. Totally different and completely different. But my friend was like, you know, this is good enough to be published. And she says, and the best way to get published is through in romance. So you need to join rwa. And that's how I wound up in the romance thing. So I wrote three women's fiction before I published one book that accidentally turned out to be a contemporary romance. And my then publisher was like, it sold like gangbusters. You're writing. You're writing contemporary romance now. And so that's how I wound up writing contemporary romance. But the thing that happens is that a lot of my stuff that there's always seems to be a smidge of a mystery thrown in somewhere.
The first book, Champagne History, Champagne's Sisterhood. The first book I published, it had, even though it wasn't the first I wrote, it was the first that. No, it was the third. Whatever. Champagne, Sisterhood. There was a mystery through that whole back thing. People were like, what the hell's going on? And my, My.
The agent said to me, you're going to have to pick. You're either writing women's fiction or you're writing romantic suspense. You can't mix it. So I had to take out some of that suspense element I had. There was like, every chapter, every other chapter opened with these people talking like, who are they? What's going on? They're sitting outside the church watching the funeral. They're doing this, they're doing that. She's like, either you're writing one or the other. So I had to take all that out and rewrite these people in a different light. But there was still a mystery that was revealed towards the end.
And the. The contemporary romance, which was Aloha, Texas, it had sort of a mystery in there that you were trying to figure out. And so I occasionally throw in secrets and things like that just because it makes it more interesting. I'm. I'm writing faster and more. And books aren't as complex, so they don't get as much of that mystery aspect.
But.
But there's always, like. I wrote one called Shell Game in that Aloha series.
And it's. I. I laugh. I say, it's the Golden Girls Meet Miami.
Forgot the name of the show.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: Not Miami Vice.
[00:26:34] Speaker D: Yes, it's the. Thank you. It's the Golden Girls Meet Miami Vice. Because basically it. The story was, I had to write about a seal. I didn't want to. I had to go back to his early days. And I wrote about the SEAL who had been a Navy seal. He'd been with the CIA, and he was now on a forced vacation on a cruise ship.
And the heroine was accompanying her grandmother, who's a retired grifter. Her grand. Her fan, her. Her family were grifters. I don't mean, you know, petty thieves. I mean the sting, big operations. They were grifters and they were retired now. And the grandmother used to like to go and pick people's pockets.
She. She'd steal the. The wallet and then she'd put it back just to keep herself nimble.
Except as she was getting older, she kept getting caught when she was putting it back, not taking it, but putting it back. And the. The heroine's husband had been her. Her deceased husband had been a cop. And so when her grandmother pulls up with the police officer, she's like, look, we're getting a lot of new officers. On the force, and they don't know who your husband is. We got to get your grandmother under control.
And so she winds up on a cruise with the grandmother to. Just to keep her in line. And this woman is doing so. It's just. It's a hilarious story. But there turns out there's a couple of real thieves on the ship. And so now a retired cop and the former CIA and the former grifter and the parent, and they're all trying to figure this out, and they do their own little scam to get back at the people who hoodwinked, you know, swindled everybody. They're swindlers, not thieves. And it turns out to be a little bit of a. Of a cute little mystery. Ish. Kind of one of these years, I'm going to turn that into a cozy mystery series.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: But that's the question. So why look? Not why? Because you did the smart thing.
Many authors, and we know many of them, have difficulty staying in a lane. So what was it that kept you in a lane? As opposed to people who are like, okay, so I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do a little cozy, and then I'm gonna do a little answer.
[00:28:41] Speaker D: Do you want the real answer?
[00:28:44] Speaker B: The real answer.
[00:28:45] Speaker D: I like making money.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: I know. So. But that's the smart answer. Like that.
[00:28:50] Speaker D: That's the real answer. Stay in your lane. You want to be established. You want people to recognize you. You want people to say, chris Kenniston put out a new book, and they buy it without having a clue what it was written about you. Stay in your damn lane. Excuse my language.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Was it hard? Because most people I know, I can't even stand a language. Really Struggle.
[00:29:10] Speaker D: No, it's a job. It's a job. This is my job. When people come up to me and say, oh, are you still writing?
I'm like, I want to say, I'm sorry. Are you still bookkeeping? Are you still doing balance sheets?
Are you still cleaning out, you know, bedpans in hospitals? Are you still, you know, it's my job. I write books. It's my job. I have to report every day. I have to work several hours a day. I have to meet deadlines. I have to fulfill expectations.
I. You know, it's my job.
And my job if I want to make money is to stay in my lane. What went well was contemporary romance. That's it. And then I veered from military to cowboys and western, which went very well for me. And then I veered back to New England And I'm like, oh, people like cowboys and westerns better. So we went back to Texas. All set in Texas now. So I.
I have a. My fans know what to expect from me. They just know what to expect.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: So how. Because this is the thing that I think I was always impressed by that you took look. Okay, so when. When we met, we were at conferences that we're about business. We don't talk about writing that much. And people are always surprised. They're like, you don't talk about writing. I'm like, you got to talk about how to sell books. So we talked about business. And you were very.
I don't say direct, but focused on what was going to be the best for the business. Whereas I think maybe 50% of the people are like, but what about that frolic and detour and, you know, the frolic and detour into cozies or thrillers or.
[00:31:00] Speaker D: As I said, it is a job. And you have to understand something. I am.
My degree is in economics, so I have a common sense background. I started the family business.
I have a. A concept of business. I know how things work. I know how expectations work. I know how illusion works. I know how, you know, I have one shot to get my customer in the door, and if I blow it, they're not coming back.
And that's true with reading as well. You screw up that. Let me just get it out. Doesn't matter if it's good, but nah, if you lose them on that book, they're never coming back.
So I have a business skill set that I'm fully aware of, and I just applied it. So where a lot of people who write are just like, I've always wanted to write a book.
I have all these ideas in my head.
I just have to get this on paper. This is the book of my heart. Susan Wiggs, an excellent author in romantic women's fiction, wrote me a. Or what used to be called mainstream romance in the days she was critiquing my champagne sisterhood.
And she wrote. She read the first book. She loved it. She said, I'll tell you this.
If this had my name on it, it would be published.
I said, thank you. I said, the agent wants me to change this, this and that, and. And I don't know what to do. And she said, well, have to write the book of your heart. You have to this. And I says, no, I wrote the book I wanted to write. I need it to be the book that will sell. What would I do? She goes, well, in that case. And she changed Completely. Because you know, every, every aspiring author wants to be told, write the book of your heart. It's a business. There are rules, regulations, norms, expectations and things that can be anticipated. If you do this and you change that. You know, if you are writing small town Mayberry RFD and then you decide you're going to shift gears and you want to put in a shape shifter in the middle of this small town scenario, you are going to have a rebellion because you have not met expectations.
Does that mean there's a problem with shape shifters? Absolutely not. It's just not the expectation. So you have to find your bit. You know, there are so many, you know, Coca Cola, they changed their formula a million years ago and called it New Coke.
Well, that didn't go over very well and they wound up removing it from the market and going back to Coca Cola. It. There's expectations, there's business sense. You have to follow it. I have no problem following it. This is a job to me, it is just a job and I'm very thankful for it because I can do it anywhere.
So if my daughter is, you know, living in, in, in Houston and pregnant and we're waiting for this baby to come, I can work in Houston so I can help her with this baby for weeks, not just days.
And if, you know, my friend wanted to do a. When for her 50th birthday, she wanted to do a cruise in Australia. She wanted to scuba dive the Great Barrier Reef. Well, I don't scuba dive. I don't swim. Can I swim? Yes.
Do I like it? No. I don't like being in the water. I like being on it or near it. I don't want to be in it. So I spent four days on this live aboard scuba dive ship because I ain't going to call it a cruise ship. It was, you know, very basic, a boat.
She swam all day under the water. And I wrote a book.
So.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: But what do you think it is that makes you that, that gives you the ability to have a practical nature in an industry where I'm sure, you know, many writers struggle with that other, with the practical side.
[00:35:14] Speaker D: That way? Yeah, the same reason. Why am I a number 34 learner? I don't know, you know, I'm just. These are my skill sets. My skill sets. One of my skill sets, and I forget which one it's called is I have the ability to walk into a room, check out everything that's happened and then realize, this isn't going to work. We need to shift and do this. And I Can just do that in like two minutes. And everybody else needs a week of studying spreadsheets to figure out what I did in three minutes. That's just, that's just something I have. I was born with it. I don't think I was taught to do that. Either your brain works that way or it doesn't.
That's all there is to it.
And so there's pretty.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: So when, when we were at Indian Tensor, there were more people like that than not. I mean there's. Then that was. For me, it was somewhat eye opening because there are people. When we're sitting at like this, in this room, in this tiny hotel and people are like, well, that's not going to work. That cover's not going to work. And it was very. It was the first time anybody outside of pub. Traditional publishers who you. I'm not going to say you don't trust them, but you.
They make two choices sometimes that don't work. And so when they're like, this cover is not going to work or whatever, you're always like, but does it.
But sitting in that room and authors like, this cover is not going to work. I remember somebody saying it to me in years ago and I was like, well, but I spent $400. And she was like, okay, but what. So what is that? What does that have to do with like anything? And I was like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, I got it. I was like, so I need to change the COVID And she's like, yes. And I was like, okay.
[00:36:45] Speaker D: Expectations, reader expectations.
There are business facts that cannot be ignored. And one of them is you have like 15 seconds to catch someone's attention as they're scrolling through 900 books online.
If that cover is off, you're not going to get that person to stop and buy it.
That's a fact.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Case in fact, I know some people.
[00:37:06] Speaker D: Are better at recognizing what is and is not a good cover. HR Ward, she did. Holly Ward, she had, I think it was called the Arrangement. I don't know. She did a beautiful cover. Gorgeous. It could have been in a museum. She couldn't sell the books.
She changed the COVID and she took off like wildfire.
Because reader expectations, you have to understand there's a business side to this. It's not all about what you think is pretty. It's not all about what you want to happen. It's about reader expectation. And then if you want to earn a living, that reader expectation needs to be in the larger percentages. I am legally 100% Hispanic. Both my Parents were born in South America.
I am fluent in Spanish.
Fluid. If I open my mouth, people who are from South America will say to me, oh, you're from Colombia.
Because I have an accent from the northern part of Colombia. When you're in Colombia, they're like, oh, you're from the coast. Yeah, my mother was from.
Family was from Barranquilla. So I have an accent from that part of the country.
But I don't promote that. I don't do anything with that because that's a very small demographic. That's a very small niche.
And. And I'm not. I don't function like your typical Hispanic. I was born and raised in New York. I. I function like a New Yorker.
So I write small town angst, free love stories.
Well, all right. Romances. Because love stories can have negative endings.
Yeah, romances. And why?
Because that is a massive demographic that will allow me to pay the mortgage, pay the taxes, pay the groceries, you know, pay the $500 electric bill I got, because it's 100 degrees in August, you know, and. And my husband likes it really cold.
So you, you, you have to take these things into account. And I do, as a business person, I take all of that into account.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: So then what was. Well, I'll ask you this. What was your experience of traditional publishing? What year were you. What year did you start there?
[00:39:38] Speaker D: I was never published by a major New York publisher. I was. My original books came out by a small independent publisher who, who took me under their wing and taught me what I needed to do. And once I had figured it all out, they're like, okay, you can do this on your own. You don't need me anymore, do you?
[00:39:56] Speaker B: So you learned some. Because I think that.
[00:39:58] Speaker D: So I learned a lot from New York. I learned a great deal from New York because I have a good many friends who were published by New York.
You know, I was. Some of my closest friends when I was writing were Jane. Jane Graves and Lorraine Heath.
And I mean, I know a bunch of people who.
I remember. What was her name? Sandy Blair. She wrote Scottish Highland Romance.
And the first one was the Blackstone something or other.
And the publisher gave it the title man in a Kilt. And she said, that is the dumbest because it was a time travel. The woman was staying in a. In a comp. In a. In a castle she inherited. And when she woke up, she was 500 years ago.
And so then she wrote the second book for it and she gave it some title and, I don't know, Thief in a Quilt, I forget what it was.
And then the third book she wrote, she submitted and she just put line in a kilt. You figure out what you want to name it. Obviously my opinion doesn't count.
And so, you know, I, I learned a lot about how New York handled you, about how New York paid you, about how New York publicized you, about how New York determined your next book. I was trying to sell the Champagne Sisterhood and I was talking with the, I think it was the publishing. I don't know if it was the publishing company or the agent for Susan Wigs. And I made the comment how I hated the last book. And he said, yeah, but it's selling beautifully. I said, it's selling beautifully because the book before that was fantastic.
But I promise you, the next book, the numbers are going to be down because this book sucked.
Now it happens, you know, we're not all perfect. Every book hits or miss. They're not all as good as the other one. And he looked at me when he went, you know, that's a very good point.
I went, common sense, guys. But the, the reality is I understood how New York worked with their numbers, with everything.
It's one of the reasons why that, that class that I keep meaning to put together, it consists of releasing three books extremely quickly because I learned from New York that that's how it works. When New York wanted to make you a New York Times bestseller, they held your books back. And instead of releasing them every six months or once a year, they released them three months in a row. Boom, boom, boom. And that third book always hit New York Times. That's how they made Emily March a New York Times bestseller. Susan Mallory.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yeah, okay.
[00:42:37] Speaker D: That's how they. She was already a well selling author, but that's how they got her on the New York Times was they dropped three books in one summer.
And that's how Virgin river took off. These are things you learned from New York. But I was never actually published from New York, but I used it. They get things wrong. Remember that and don't do it. And they get things right. Remember that and repeat it. You know, you learn from everywhere.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: But did you. How did you. I guess the question is. So one of the things that comes up often is that people.
Okay, the switch to indie a lot of people found daunting, difficult.
[00:43:19] Speaker C: Not insurmountable.
[00:43:20] Speaker D: Because obviously running your own publishing company, Right.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: Did you, did you worry about taking on that?
[00:43:29] Speaker D: The whole, I'm sorry I started a business.
[00:43:32] Speaker B: I know you're like, no, no, publishing.
[00:43:35] Speaker D: Is like easy time. Consuming, yes. But it's a job. If you don't mind working nine to five, five days a week, you got it made.
Problem is, people who have a 9 to 5 job and they're doing this on the side, that's tough.
I'm, I'm struggling now to get my, my book met. I'm, I'm a week late, and I'm only halfway through it because my daughter and her family are staying with me while they relocate to a different city. And so it's like, you know, I'm getting another cup of milk and I'm tying your shoes and, you know, and I'm like, ah, time to go take a bath. And no, don't go. You can't put. Wait, you got to put your life jacket on before you go in the pool. And you know, I'm like, okay, now what was I writing?
Yeah, not happening. So I, it's tough, but, you know, it's, it's, it's just a business. It's a different business. And if you're going to be your publisher, and I never tried to do it all from day one. I don't care how to format a book. That's what professional formatters are for. And I'm not going to edit my own book. That's what professional editors are for. And I'm not going to design my own cover and spend 600 years fighting with Photoshop. I'm going to hire a pro who knows exactly what they're doing. And that's exactly what happened. The first books I wrote, my. The publisher was like, pick a font you like, and I picked a font I liked, and then they sent it to the COVID designer and they go, this is all wrong. What do you mean?
This is not your genre. Look at your competition and look at how the fonts are. And I went, oh. And so they changed it. And, and you know, it's, it's, you know, you have to use the professional. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: But, okay, I will say this. Okay.
Would you acknowledge that your approach may be different than the majority of people? Because I feel like when I talk to writers, they spend a lot of time spinning over all of these things that are very matter of fact to you. Like, can I change the COVID What. What are my reader expectations? Can I stay in a lane? How do I feel about how my publisher treated me in 1983? Like, I mean, there's a lot of internal angst. I feel like among writers, in pushing through from the writing part to the business part.
[00:45:48] Speaker D: Probably because they're not business people. They're.
They're. They're.
What is it when you're left brain, right brain, left brain creatives, I guess they're creative. They're not business. I'm a business person.
I just happen to be fortunate that I can create.
[00:46:05] Speaker B: That may be a better combination.
Maybe a better combination.
[00:46:09] Speaker D: It sure is. Because I don't. I don't. Do I angst? Yes. Do I angst? No. But am I practical? Yes. I got my cover designer sent me four covers for a Christmas book. And I'm like, well, I don't like this one at all, but I like this one. And my friend was like, no, I like that one. I'm like, oh, crap.
So I threw it up on Facebook and said all of my fans, people who read me and like me, who I want to find more of which do you like?
I put the one that won.
Decision made. I didn't have to deal with.
Do I have the skill set to do a B testing? No.
Just ask my fan base. What did you guys. Who liked which one? And. And it won by a margin. But the blue cover won, and that's what went up.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: That is.
It is a very shortcut. I. Okay, let me say this because I, you know, we. I have writer friends, many of whom, you know, I think I may spend hours on the phone.
Well, a decision that you. It sounds like you may have made in, like, minutes. I think I spend many hours on phone people who make those same decision in hours, days, or weeks.
And there's just a lot of back and forth about. Well, but then how do I feel about this cover designer? And I mean, there's so many feelings involved in all of those. I know you're shaking your head in all of those decisions. Well, how do I feel about them? Well, you know, she did a couple.
[00:47:42] Speaker D: Have no place in business.
I have a friend of mine. She's a cpa, Extremely competent woman. Came from a forensic accounting background, and she was in a business deal with certain people, and there were certain issues, and she said, I need you to correct this letter for me. Sure.
I feel you're doing okay. Start back up. Repedling. Men don't give a rat's ass how you feel.
Men don't give a rat's ass how the other men feel. This is business.
Back up. Stop talking like a woman. Business. And we fix the letter. And we fix the letter. And we fix the letter.
And it doesn't really matter how you feel about your cover artist. Does your cover artist give You a headache? Yes. Fire her. Get another one. Does your cover artist give you excuse my language every time you say to her, I don't like that? Well, I've already done six covers. Fire her. I've done that. I had that cover artist. Very good.
But she would get offended because. No, that's not quite right. No, we need to fix this. No, that's not here. And I'm like, nope, not dealing with that. So I hired a cover artist who was also very talented, very good. And when I think, nat, can we try something different? Okay, she tries something different and. Okay, raise that. Okay. Make that smaller. Okay. The name is. I can't read my name. I can't read the title if they can't read. If I can't read it, nobody else can read it. It's not going to sell a book. Okay. And. And so that's my cover designer. You, you work on a business level of what accomplishes your goals and does not give you ulcers. In the meantime, how you feel is irrelevant.
Oh, she's such a nice person. I like her so much, but her covers aren't so good. Yeah, but I like her. Too damn bad.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:49:36] Speaker D: If she doesn't organically, what would you like on your cover? I don't know. I'm not a cover designer. I write the books, you design the covers. Show me what your ideas are and I'll tell you which ones I think will sell the book.
It's. It's feelings are irrelevant, but unfortunately feelings are very important to creative people. So it's why I tell you, if you're that creative, you need to get a business support system in place where you don't have to do all the work.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: You know, I've talked to. There's a friend and I have talked about that, that she. If there in her perfect world there would be a business where you could support people.
But what we could never figure out was going to. Who's going to be the person who's going to be that liaison? Because that's the hard job.
Hand holding somebody who has feelings about it. And then also, how am I going to sell this to a million people?
[00:50:29] Speaker D: Well, what I, what I really meant was more in lines of get people to work for you who you.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: I know, but I think people need.
[00:50:39] Speaker D: To report with everybody struggle. Everybody should have their own assistant to do the business stuff while you're doing the creating stuff.
I have three.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: Did you find it hard because I've had this conversation with other authors. Did you find it hard to Find people who are confident.
[00:51:00] Speaker D: Absolutely.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: And okay.
[00:51:02] Speaker D: Welcome to the business world. You don't. You don't think. You don't think.
Sorry for being real, but you don't think that. The people at Astronomer were shocked to discover that their. Their c. CEO Was not doing the job they thought they were doing. They were too busy having fun with their CFO concert while their wives and husbands were home. You know, this is just the fact of life. This is business. That's why people get fired. That's why there's an unemployment office.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Okay.
I would like to.
[00:51:39] Speaker D: I'm not helping you, am I? I'm so sorry. No.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Because I want to borrow it, and then I want to package it, and I want to, like, sprinkle it on all of us. Because what you're saying, unless it makes absolute, like, a hundred percent sense, there's no. No lies told. But it's. I.
I think people really struggle with the feelings. Like, even this year, like, I hired somebody, it was not. It was a mistake, and I had to fire them. And it was faster than some other times I've done it, but I did have to sit and think, but how do I feel about that? And I thought, oh, well, this is not working out. Let me just, you know, like, I'm just gonna move on. But I. But if it's not making your life.
[00:52:18] Speaker D: Easier, then it's not working. Get rid of it.
[00:52:20] Speaker B: And that was the thing. I'm like, this is. This is more work for me. And what I wanted was less work for me.
And here we go.
[00:52:28] Speaker D: Sometimes you. Sometimes you have to do that. I've had to do that because everybody who works for me now did not have any book experience.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's something we've talked about. Yeah.
[00:52:39] Speaker D: And so I had to teach them how I function, which I preferred, and what expectations are and learn whose skill sets are where. And that's what they do. They do what they. You know, I have one person who does my newsletters, and she updates my website, and she. She does my graphics.
That's what she likes doing. And if there's a problem with her, I have a backup website person who I go to and say, I need this fixed. She's out of town. She's busy. She's sick. She's. Whatever.
Then I have. My daughter works for me now, and she does a lot of the heavy lifting for the taxes and the reports and, you know, uploads and format. She. She delegates all this stuff that I don't. This way I have time to write and release Faster. And then I have a third person who is a true administration whiz. God, that woman is on top of everything. She reminds us all of everything we forget who did the Goodreads? Oh, Eric, I forgot that I'm doing it right now. And don't forget I got, I got a text this morning at 9 o'. Clock. Don't forget you have an 11am interview and I'll get a text. It's Monday, you haven't put your blog up yet, you know, and I get an email. Okay, in your business email these three people you need to respond to. Thank you. And so you have different people with different skill sets.
And it, you know, I didn't find them overnight.
I built on that. And I had to make enough money selling books that I could afford to pay these people a true wage to do this job for me.
But, but it's, it's business. And you. If it makes your life easier, then it works. And if it's making more work for you, then it doesn't work. Move on and find somebody else.
[00:54:36] Speaker B: Okay, so there's not just thinking the number of conversations I've had where it's like there's crying and what do I do? And I gave her a chance and I should have known. And I didn't like it. Like she made a mistake on day one. But I gave. Waited 180 days and like so many. I know, but I, but this is. This, these. The conversation time.
[00:54:57] Speaker D: You can wait 180 days forever and ever. Amen.
Is with family.
So if my daughter screws up.
If my daughter screws up, well, oh well, she's inheriting the business. I got to put up with it.
If a stranger screws up. Nice knowing you. Thank you very much. I'll find somebody else.
[00:55:26] Speaker B: This is rare. This is. No, it's, it's just, it's rare because it's just.
I swear to God, I may spend like many hours on the week texting and having these conversations with people who are trying to, like trying to let somebody go, trying to get over their feelings about this person, trying to decide if, if how many mistakes is too many mistakes.
[00:55:48] Speaker D: Okay?
[00:55:49] Speaker B: And call me in a week and all of that.
[00:55:51] Speaker D: You, you feel you're on the precipice of this issue, pick up the phone, call me and I'll give you a 10 minute lecture on what to do and how to do it and why to do it. And then you can decide if you want to struggle some more or just do it. Let me know.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: It's Just, this is like, feel free to call anytime. And I don't know, like, I wonder. I always thought, I can't decide if it's women or the creative side. But there's always such a struggle between the decision and the action.
[00:56:17] Speaker D: Women are more empathetic than men. Absolutely. That's part of it.
Women are more nurturing than men. That's part of the problem.
Women can be more emotional. I am not an emotional person. You know, PMS didn't exist for me. I'm not an emotional person.
That doesn't mean I'm not a loving, caring person. I just. Emotions don't jump to the table. My poor daughter, when she gets really angry, she starts to cry.
And. And it makes her even angrier that she's crying because she's angry.
She can't help that. That's just the way she's wired.
So there, that is a factor of it. But the other part of it is also that creative people, normally, business is not their goods, their best skill set.
Normally, it's not always the case.
[00:57:09] Speaker B: No, but it's a huge trick. I live in a city full of creative people who also have to run a business. And it's. The disconnect is huge. Like, it's not small.
[00:57:18] Speaker D: Yeah, no, it's just there's different. There's different skill sets. And most of the people who are creative and running the big businesses are paying people with good sense to do some of the mediocre things. Some of the minutiae. Not mediocre, some of the minutia that they don't have time for or the skill sets for, you know, people who are really, really good at what they do, do it. And what they're not really good at, they delegate.
[00:57:40] Speaker B: Delegate.
[00:57:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:41] Speaker D: And that's why they succeed.
[00:57:46] Speaker B: No, this is, this is. This is a conversation. So as I and my friends age, it is getting easier to make those decisions. But in the height of the indie, you know, like 2014-2018 or whatever those years were, these were real struggles that people were having. And I think that a lot of people's indie book businesses could have done better if these struggles had not played out for so long.
And they, they played out.
[00:58:15] Speaker D: I had. There was a. An author at one of the uncons, and she.
We were having a dinner conversation. I don't remember it.
And the next year we came back and she said, thank you. And I said, you're welcome. What did I do?
She said, you gave me some really good advice. I said, what is that? I said, well, at dinner last year, I was talking about trying a new genre, and you looked at me and you said to me, why don't you like making money?
Looked her and I said, oh, my God, did I really say that? She said exactly like that. I went, I am so sorry. I should have been a lot more, you know, tactful about it. She says, no, it was a very good point. I stayed in the same genre. I did not pan out, and I had my best year ever. I says, well, I'm glad.
I says, you know, once you're really, really doing well, like Nora Roberts was doing really, really well selling romantic fiction and was a name that could be had anywhere.
Then she expanded and did JD Robb.
You know, once you're really good, you know, JK Rowlings, once you are JK Rowling and making a fortune with Harry Potter, you can use any name you want to write any. Any thriller you want. And if it does well, great. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But she's an excellent example of that. She used a different pen name. The books didn't sell well, and they went well, J.K. rowling writing as off they went. Why? Because she had developed the following for who she was?
[00:59:58] Speaker B: No, I.
Everything you say makes sense. I wonder what the. Wonder why it's so hard to hear. And this is the thing I remember mostly about the Indian con is that hard truths were said, and then many of the authors I know would go home and struggle to implement that, even though. So, you know, it's always like, if you know better, you do better, which I don't believe, but then people know better and then they still don't do better. And that was. That was always the disconnect. It's like, if you don't have the knowledge, that is fair. But then once you have the knowledge and then you don't implement it, then there's a different question.
[01:00:32] Speaker D: It's because what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting a different result?
[01:00:40] Speaker B: Mm.
[01:00:41] Speaker D: It's that simple.
It's truly that simple. It's just very difficult for people frequently to do me.
If you were going to tell me, and people have told me that my income could double if I would learn to deal with social media advertising, you know what I do? I look at you and say, there's not enough money in the world to make me do that.
It is not my skill set.
I don't have the time to watch them.
I don't have the time to figure out the stupid dashboards. Why is it doing this? Why isn't doing that? Why did you do this? Wait a minute. Who can I talk to? Nobody can hold your hand. There's nobody who you. I'm like, no, I'm not doing that.
So some things you have to accept are not your skill set. So to beat yourself up because you can't let go of this or you can't let go of that, if it's not your personality, you can beat yourself up from now till doomsday. And you're just going to make yourself bruised.
You know, you're not going to succeed. You're just going to get. You're going to be having black and blues. And every time you bump that sore elbow. Ow.
You know, there. You have to understand your own limitations. And then you have to work within what you're capable of doing. Okay. If I need to assemble this and I can't figure out. All right, hand me the piece of paper. I will read the instructions carefully under a flashlight and say a prayer first. And I should be able to do this because I'm not a stupid person. Will it frustrate me? Yes. Would I preferred it if somebody else had done it? Yes. But there it is. Now, in order to make this toy run for my grandchild, I have to read the entire book of 100 page of instructions. Oh, no, we're buying a different toy.
I know my limitations.
So we have to understand that we are who we are. And we're at an age where it's. You can't always change it. Can we learn things? Absolutely. Can we improve things? Absolutely. But to try to go from 90 miles an hour east to 90 miles an hour west in a heartbeat, it's, it's physically impossible. You need turnaround time.
You might need to do a little bit. Okay, let's, let's ease back to 80 miles an hour. And then when you get a handle on that, ease back to 50. And then when you finally get down to 30. Okay, now turn the car around.
You know, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of practicality involved and we can't allow ourselves to keep beating ourselves over the head over it. But you have to understand your limitations. And you have to understand that just because you feel something isn't going to change the facts.
[01:03:45] Speaker B: That's true.
[01:03:46] Speaker A: That is true.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: That is very true.
[01:03:49] Speaker D: It's like I keep telling my grandchildren, crying changes nothing.
Crying fixes nothing.
Feelings don't change things. Feelings don't fix things. You have to learn to understand what triggers your feelings and how to avoid those triggers.
And then you have to learn how far can I push my feelings before my feelings are pushing me.
[01:04:14] Speaker B: This is all very wise counsel that it has taken many people I know many years, many, many, many, so many years to get to.
So let me ask you this.
Do you see, I don't know, I don't want to say it this way. Do you see it end in sight?
Do you anticipate slowing down in terms of the book writing? Because most people I know are, you.
[01:04:40] Speaker D: Know, it's yeah, I'm older.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: We'Re aging and it's, I'm older.
[01:04:46] Speaker D: I, I, I, I'm, I have an intention, my intention is to continue the pace I'm at for at least two years and then I will turn around and say, okay, am I in a place where I want to keep doing this at this pace for a little longer or do I want to slow down and just write one or two books a year? Or do I want to stop altogether?
But you know, I'm, I'm definitely not pushing to sell more, work more. Would I love to make more money? Absolutely. Why? I'd love to own a beach house. Do you know how much those things cost?
Oh, well, I'm probably never going to buy a beach house because what I want is going to cost me over a million dollars and then it's going to cost you, you know, a hundred thousand dollars a year in taxes and insurance.
[01:05:34] Speaker B: Insurance, I'm sure that's gonna be, I.
[01:05:36] Speaker D: Don'T sell enough books to throw away a million dollars and I'm not wanting that beach house enough to deal with, with social media advertising. So we've learned that much.
But if I were much younger, heck yes, I would do things very differently. But I'm not, I'm older and I don't need to be chasing every rainbow and I just need to be practical with what's working for me. This is, I'm at an income level where I can afford to help my children if they need it. I can afford to help my grandchildren if there's an emergency, I can do with it. And then some things, I just don't make enough money for that million dollar beach house and I don't make enough money to add a third car garage to the house.
And I, you know, oh well.
And is it worth adding a third car garage at my age? Because I could be dead in 10 years.
So there's a little bit of a practical input. But you know, I'm in The wind down stage. I'm not in the wind up stage at all. That's all it is. You're just gonna have to keep up with the trends and the marketing and I'll be dead. It ain't going to be my problem.
But we're doing it right now. You know, there was, when I got in the business 20 years ago, World War II was taboo.
Now it's a genre that's a popular one. Why? Because it's almost 100 years old.
It's a historical.
It's. It's a World War II historical.
[01:07:07] Speaker B: Wait. Okay. Before I wrap up, I will tell you this. So my son comes home and he's talking about, I think this year he's taking American history, which is not called that, but more or less that. And I said, oh, where does the book end? And he said, ronald Reagan. And he said, where did your book end? And I said, ronald Reagan was president when I was in American history.
And he literally felt like, I think he just like his brain was like, okay. And I was like, time marches on. I said, when I was a kid, World War II was, I don't say fairly new, but it had been 40 years, 30, 40 years.
And now it's, we're like creep. You know, the time is creeping up and it's just, it's, it is interesting to watch the passage of time. I didn't think I would see it so closely, but here we are. So, Chris, with, with your practical knowledge, I want to thank you so, so much for being a guest. It's, it's very enlightening. I will say this, it's very enlightening because you have an approach to publishing that I wish more of us could like take on without so much angst and you know, sturm and drang.
But enjoy your, your cooling weather which is hot for me.
And I want to thank you so much for being a guest.
[01:08:26] Speaker D: I want to thank you for inviting. This has been a lot of fun. We need to do it more often.
[01:08:31] Speaker C: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you'll share rate and leave a five star review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm an author. My latest book, His Last Mistress is out now. Check out the five star reviews and.
[01:08:58] Speaker B: Get your copy before someone else spoils the twist.
[01:09:02] Speaker C: I'm also the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the series are now live. You can download Outcry Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. You can follow me on Substack, Instagram, Blue sky and even Facebook Eagle Thriller Author or on TikTok @SocialThrillerAuthor. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
[01:25:31] Speaker D: Sam Foreign.
[01:26:01] Speaker B: This has been a time.
[01:26:02] Speaker C: To thrill with me, your host Amy Austin.
If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you'll share rate and leave a five star review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm an author. My latest book, His Last Mistress is out now. Check out the five star reviews and get your copy before someone else spoils the twist.
I'm also the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the series are now live. You can download Outcry, Witness, Major Crimes Without Consent and the Murders Began to your e reader right now. I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of leg legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library and also an audiobook. You can follow me on Substack, Instagram, Blue sky and even Facebook Eagle Thriller Author or on TikTok. OcialthrillerAuthor. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
[01:27:14] Speaker D: Sa.
