Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hi, and welcome to a time to thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. It is August 1. I want to apologize for the unintended soundscape. I'm recording this while I'm in Budapest. They are a year into the exterior renovation of my building, also adding an elevator to a one 40 year old building. I have some feelings about that, but we will skip my thoughts on that.
Additionally, my apartment faces the street and there's a lot of traffic. I should probably record this at another time, but I've been out during the other parts of the day when it's quiet.
Who knows why. So welcome to August. It's been a hot one this summer. I have unapologetically turned on air conditioning. Such a non european thing to do. Or rather, a very american thing to do. But here we are in a hot world.
This month, I have the pleasure of interviewing author Kelly Garrett. So, Kelly writes crime fiction.
She used to be in LA, and her first couple of books are about are about Los Angeles.
And her most recent book, Missing White Woman, actually takes place in Jersey City, New Jersey.
She's from Jersey, so I assume that that's the reason why I think. I didn't ask that during the interview. So here you go. It is an interesting talk, and I hope you enjoy it. In the meantime, I. Let's see a the. So his last mistress is done. Done. It comes out in January, but right now I'm having it read by some early readers. If you're on the newsletter list, I'm sure you saw about that, because I've taken a little departure into the psychological thriller territory, and I wanted some feedback to see if I hit the mark in the way I wanted to. I actually haven't looked at the feedback. I've been traveling, so I haven't had a chance to do that, actually. I was in Paris, so can I tell you this? So the Olympics were in Paris. I was in Paris, and I was trying to take a train, and they had all these people standing on the platform with blue welcome bienvenue vests and what look like lightsabers, but I just like fluorescent light wands. I'm not sure what that was for.
Maybe to get your attention. So I'm thinking, why are all these people standing on the platform? Getting into Paris hadn't been so bad.
It was actually a little bit easy, which freaked me out. Getting around Paris. So they're standing on the platforms. I swear to God, it was like a flashback to being in Tokyo. So they're getting on the platforms and the train arrives, and the train is literally full. And I'm thinking, so I skipped that train because they have a little sign up there that indicates how full the trains are. And I was like, the next one's in five minutes. I do not need to be on this train. It's 90 billion degrees in Paris. There's no air conditioning to be found. Sweating already on the platform underground, and the train is literally packed with people. Like a cattle car.
Okay. I know. I want to know why we've had cattle in a car. Like, that seems inhumane. Okay, side note, anyway, so I'm standing on the platform. So the next train, I'm like, you know, I have to get somewhere. Like, I can't stand around. I've already walked, like, a couple miles outside to avoid the train, but I'm tired of being hot and walking, and I'm not interested in walking, like, five or six more miles.
And the buses in Paris are.
You know, I've been. I've lived to other places that have had more direct bus systems to get you from point a to point b. The metro is where it's at. So the next train arrives, and it is full, like the last one. I thought, well, what's gonna happen? So it's in a major train station, I assume so people get out. Not enough people. And I'm like, well, I guess I'm gonna try to get on. The people on the platform in their lovely bamvenue welcome vest, proceed to Tokyo fashion, push people onto the train until the doors can close.
I have never been so close to humans. We're all going to die of a disease. I'm not even germaphobe. And I was just like, okay, no, fortunately, like, one of the Olympic venues was two stops later and enough people got out that I could actually take a breath and move my arms.
So that's going on.
It's interesting. I didn't realize the Olympic colors are going to be so pastel. So Paris is full of pastels. I guess if he checks my Instagram feed. No, I haven't posted them yet, but maybe I'll post a couple of those pastel photos. The pastel banners, the pastel street decals.
The Olympics in a major city is interesting. The alternative. So the two cities that bid on it were Paris and Budapest. Budapest lost and Paris won. And it's actually quite fascinating because the mayor of Budapest is in Paris, seeing whether or not they should make another bid. I'm gonna tell you, I could live without it. The next one is in Los Angeles. I hope that I'm not there, then my goal is to fly here to avoid the Olympics there.
As a kid, actually, I watched the Olympics and I really enjoyed it as an adult. I stopped watching it because it became, at least in the US, I haven't watched it here that much. It's just, it was so many packages of storytelling about athletes and very little athleticism shown. It was like, here's a swim match and it's 4 seconds. I know swim matches aren't that long, swim meets or whatever, but then it was like 40 minutes of commercials and talking about the athletes and their story and all that. Well, I think that that's interesting. I want to see the feats of prowess from people who spend all their time training and the Olympics stop being that. I think it's different here. I saw it like, they have public monitors both in Paris and in Budapest, outside, like, huge public screens where you can watch matches. And I don't know when it's below 90 degrees, maybe I'll consider it. So, okay, that was a complete digression. I don't, nobody needs to know anything more about that. I am on the fence about what is going to come next for Casey Cor and Nicole Long. If you have any suggestions, feel free to email me. I think I want to write a standalone thriller.
Just a little palette cleanser. I haven't decided.
Or maybe, who knows? Maybe I'll dip my toe back into romance. Who is to say? But right now I'm taking a break thinking about it. Running around, doing photography, going to museums, most fascinating exhibits, and living life a little bit. So that's a lot that you didn't ask for. So without further ado, here is my lovely conversation with Kelly Garrett.
Hi, and welcome to time to thrill. This is me, your host, Amy Austin. This month I am delighted to speak with author Kelly Garrett. Hi, Kelly.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for the invite.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: How are you today?
[00:07:32] Speaker B: I am good. I like whenever you just said it, I'm just waking up, so I'm great. I know you're a little bit ahead of me. Timeline had a full day. I'm bushy tailed and bright eyed.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: Okay. I can't say the same. My son and I decided to walk all the way to this art exhibit. It was a 40 minutes walk and probably should not have done it before doing this.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: You're like 20 minutes into something and you're like, this was a mistake. And you're like, kind of.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: That'S exactly what happened. But I couldn't back out because when the child is, like, willing to do stuff. You're like, let me double down.
Okay, so I have about a thousand questions. I will keep it to less than 1000.
But how long were you in LA?
[00:08:19] Speaker B: People still think I'm in LA. I've been out of LA for. I left LA in 2011, so I've been out of LA for, like, 13 years, but I was in LA for about eight years. Yeah.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Oh, that's a short tenure. So I've been in LA for 23 years, and in my head it's five minutes, but, yeah. So how did you come to LA? Because it's.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Oh, my God, how far back do we want to go? Do you want the short? You want. Was it the TLDR? What do you want?
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Okay. Did you come to LA to write for tv, or did you just gallivant to LA? So I came to LA for the weather.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: I'm such a. I'm a planner. I cannot like Galavant anywhere. And so I had been. I got my undergrad degree from Florida A and M, and I graduated 2000. Magazine journalism was working at a magazine. I work at Vibe magazine in, like, the early aughts, which is, like, when it was. I'm not saying it's not cool to work for vibe now, but it was, like, really, really, really cool.
Like, 2000. Like, 2000? Like, 2001. And so I was there 2001 right after Leah passed away. And literally my second day of work was September 11.
And so I was in LA. I was in New York, and I was working there for two years. And I was. I didn't do music at Vibe. I was. I did a lot of more. The other stuff, like, the other entertainment elements for the front of the book section called start. And, like, I would just see a lot of people, and I'm like, oh, look at all these people doing all this great stuff in film. And I like, oh, I kind of am. Like, journalism is great, but you're really writing about other people doing amazing things. And I kind of wanted to do something amazing myself. And so that was my thought process. But again, I couldn't just gallivant to LA. And so I applied to film school, and I was really blessed in that. I got into USC, which I still think is the top film school in the whole entire country of the United States.
And so I was at Vi for two years. And so in 2003, I came to LA for film school, was getting my degree in writing for screen and television. And so I spent two years there, got my masters, my MFA, and then I started working in tv, and I was an assistant. Writer's assistant. And then I got into a program on NBC, and then I was on a show called Cold Case, and I got let go from a show called Killed Case, and I was just trying to find my way. And I think I have not been involved in Hollywood for a really long time, but it's not a stable income. Not that writing, not that books are, but it wasn't a stable income. And so I was just trying to figure out. I just turned 30, and I was, like, trying to figure things out, and so I ended up coming back home. So.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: So I have to ask you. Okay, so I know a lot of people who will, let me say this. I feel like you were writing for tv in the last rows of sort of the traditional.
Yeah, I don't. I mean, everything changes, but in the last. There was the traditional models.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So basically, when I once I left television, I did not pay much attention what was going on. So when the last writer strike happened, I was so confused that people were like, oh, I had a tv job and I still needed another job. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, in my day, when you got a tv job, you were set. Like, you made money. Even, like, as a staff writer, you're making six figures. And so. And my one season on cold case was the last writer strike, the one before.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I remember that.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yes. And a lot of the issues that they were talking about, they were still talking about, we gotten screwed over with, you know, dvd's, and we know that streaming thing is happening, and we don't want to get screwed over with streaming. And so that's what was about back in like 2008 or whatever year it was right to. Like, we're still fighting over that. Like, they were mad about that, like, over ten plus years ago.
And so, yeah, I was. I still get, what if you. I don't know if you've written for tv or. No, but when you get a residual check from the WGA, you get in a green envelope. And I. One episode of Cold Case came out in like 2008, and I still get green envelopes. Right. And it's not like a lot of money might be like a $100, but, like, I. I am still making money off of a tv. Tv show, and I would had a writing partner, so I got half of it. So I'm still getting money off of a tv show I wrote in 2008. Half a tv show. Right. Considered that. They considered I wrote in 2008. So I'm like, streaming. I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's as lucrative.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: No.
So it's changed a lot. Okay. Okay. I will not. I could go on for probably a half an hour about this. So I know a number of people who write for tv, but they're all about, they're all my age, so I'm 50, 52, and they're all about my age. So they did come of age during the traditional time when, like, there were programs and all of that. And I think there's maybe one left. At universal. No, paramount. I don't even know if it's still around.
So. Okay, there's two things I'm thinking about. A, it's because there's, when people talk about there being a showrunner shortage, they're like, there's not a deep bench. And we're looking especially for, like, women of color for showrunners. And I'm like, well, without traditional programs, it's hard for people to break into. That's one thing. But the other sort of thing is that the second job, I didn't know that either. And when this strike came, so I know some people who do very well on tv, and I know people, I guess, who do less well. So when the strike happened, I was talking to somebody and they were like, why do you think I opened this, like, restaurant or something? And I was like, I thought you just wanted. I thought it was a thing. Like, I want to open a restaurant. I don't. But I assume they did. And they were like, no, I needed a second income to supplement tv, and I had nothing. Okay. A. That's not the conversation we all would always have. Like, it's not like I'm opening a restaurant because I really need the money. But I was surprised that it had gotten, for some people I know, it had gone off the rails in terms of making an income. Other people I know have, like, overall deals and other things, and those people are doing fine.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Like, you could, like, if you, if you got in, like, when Shonda Rhimes did Grey's Anatomy star Trey's atom 20 years ago, let's say you happen to get staff writer, you could stay on that show right now, you'd be rich because the show's been out for 20 years and usually rise within the ranks of the tv show, right. But at the same time, I might have been put on a show that was against Grey's Anatomy, that got canceled after one episode. And then after that, I'm a staff writer and I might not get staffed again for two years. Like, there's just no consistency. And I can remember, Amy, I went to a meeting and they were, it was a WGA meeting for women, and they were talking about how, like, if you get pregnant and your showrunner just doesn't want you to work, you can just get fired. Like, so all the, like, labor laws that we fought for in every other field basically, back then, and I don't know how it is now in tv, which is like, whatever your, your showrunner wants to do. And, I mean, you could sue him, but you'll never got to work again. And it's like, that was like, I was like, this is not, this is not the industry for me.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Okay. And I could see that. So I guess. I guess. Okay. So since I've been in LA, like, 23 years, there's two sets of people. The people who are obviously never leaving and the people who come and go because it's. I mean, I'm from New York City, so both have, like, that transient nature. People are like, I'm going to come here and make it, and then they decide to leave.
So some people I know stay, but I know people who. So I had my child at, like, 38, which is, I guess, considered old and for my own reasons, not for career reasons, but I, a lot of the people I knew were having, either they were actors or writers on tv and they wanted to have a child. This was the last, you know, we're at the end of the maternity window, but they knew that they were going to be unable to work. So that hasn't, well, my son's 14.
It hasn't changed substantially. I'll just leave that there.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: That makes me so sad.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Yes. And some of the same. The issues are the same. And I have thoughts about reality tv and some of the issues about non unionizing and other realms, but, okay. In streaming, a lot of that, those issues are still. They're still problematic. But moving on. Did you like writing for tv?
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Um, no.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:16:34] Speaker B: It was a. So I guess I can be honest. Like I said, I'm never going back. There is. I was on a show called cold case, and it was a great show and we had a really great show on our Venus.
And, like, she, like, some shows will, like, have you there, like, all night. They don't want, the showrunner hates their family, doesn't want to go home. But she was very much for balance. But, you know, for those who don't know for the least how in my day, it would just be, people would come into a conference room, right. And they would.
And we would just sit around the conference room and literally talk all day about the episodes. And I think, I think if most people are honest about their actual day job, you don't really, you might work nine to five, but you don't really work nine to five. Right? Like, there are times you're really busy and there are times when you are not busy. I think that's my job. I can admit that now, right?
Tv, I had to be on and my brain had to be working 8 hours a day because they're in the room. You have to pay attention. You're like, you go to lunch when they say to go to lunch and I would come home mentally exhausted.
Right?
And then the other thing was like, there was just so many other people who had a say because there was a studio spending like, you know, a million dollars per episode for your show, they're not gonna let you do whatever you want. They're gonna want to have a say.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: No notes.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: So you would get extensive notes from your showrunner. Really extensive notes from the studio people. Really extensive notes from the network. Now where people are CB's and studio. I think Warner Brothers did cold case. Right? And so it really wasn't your work. Right. And so those are the two things, I mean, I enjoyed, obviously, having my name and tv, like the episode still on Max, you know, and that, but in terms of me as a writer, like my books, every word in that book I wrote, right? Like, it's my baby, it's my creation. And so I didn't get that. The collaborative nature for tv just did not necessarily work for me when it came to writing. I mean, I liked, I loved brainstorming with people. I still like to brainstorm with people, but luckily I have friends and stuff who are also writers who we talk about each other's work and we can help each other brainstorm. So that element I still have. But the other element of tv just did not work for me.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: That's so interesting because I do.
So I have not written for tv, but I do know a number of people who do it. So some people like the collaborative nature and other people are working with the hope that they can be the David Kelly or the Shonda Rhimes where they are at the top of the pyramid. And therefore it's, I don't say it's less collaborative. They have more ability to direct the way things go story wise. I mean, so those are the two kinds of people I know and some people I know, they have houses and children. They just can't quit.
So it's like any job where they're in, because that's the thing they know how to do. But I always have wondered about the collaborative nature of that because it feels like it. In the end, it's not, not necessarily your vision, which is, but I don't.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Want to knock on it because they're great. Like, I love it. I don't think I know everything, right? So I, the room is that, like, I might have an idea and then you might have an idea based on my idea, which is going to take. Make it better. And I'm not going to be like, well, I think that Amy thought, I don't want to do it. I'm like, oh, that's. But I can get that through my editor. I can get that through my agent. Now, I said, I can get that through friends who read my book and give me notes. Right. But the great thing with that is that you might have a stupid idea and I don't. If I was on tv, I might like, well, I have to take it because it's the show runners. But, like, if your idea is stupid, I'm going to be like, okay, well, thanks, Amy. And I'm still going to do what I want. I think that I have more agency as a writer in books.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: That's true. I will say this, that rooms are smaller now because I don't think budgets are not necessarily smaller, but there are less writers in the room. So that has created, for some people I know, a more intimate space where it's not twelve people, let's say it's six.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: That's nice.
You have six or 8 hours a day, even more now.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Free food. So do you think, and I'll ask you this because I know people who have written for tv who have then switched to novel writing, and they feel that it has made their novel writing. I don't say not tighter, better, but more compelling in terms of moving the story along. Do you think that it has had that influence on you?
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, I spent, I just paid off my student loans and I graduated like, 19 years ago. Right. So I had spent a lot of time when I decided to leave television, I was like, oh, my God, I'm a loser.
I spent all this money to go to film school, and I'm not using it. But there are still elements that I use. Yes. Like, there are certain people who read my books are like, oh, it should be a movie. It's very cinematic. And I think it's because I have that background where, like, in tv you only get 42 minutes. I think even, you know, a little different now when you're on streaming. But if you're on network, you still get 42 minutes. And because of commercials. And so you have not, you just can't have a character walking down the street smelling, literally smelling. If they're smelling the roses, it's because it's a plot point, right. It's gonna have to.
And so I think I try to do that with my books, too, where every scene, either I'm introducing a character or I'm planting a, you know, some, some kind of plot point or I'm, you know, setting something up for later. I'm I'm doing something right that's gonna move this move. Move the scene or move the plot and the story along.
So then I think because I, you know, you have to be really good with dialogue. Good dialogue. It sounds realistic and not really is because, like, it's all like, um. Ooh, hi. How are you? You know, like, you can't have that.
Um, if I'm doing that in tv shows because I'm avoiding something, I'm hiding something. Right? Again, it's a plot point. And so. But there are bad things, too. Like, I really suck at description. I hate to read a lot of description in books. I hate to. I have to go back second pass and, like, oh, describe the room. Describe what her hair looks like. I won't describe characters, you know? So I think there's certain things I don't do well. And I think it's also because tv, you don't have to really describe what the character looks like in depth because they're gonna cast who they want anyway.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Right, right.
That's so interesting. That's. I will say this. I don't like writing description either. I like dialogue, and after that, I don't. I care less. So my second pass is, where were they? Where, where are they? What are they doing? I have to go find out where they are, where they're sitting, how close it is to the next location.
Not my favorite, but I know people who love description. Actually, I was reading a book today. I started a book today, and the description was excellent. And I was like, this is. It was describing.
I'm not gonna get this, a part of Texas that's really hot. And I was like, this is really descriptive, and I can see this, and I don't at all write like.
So I appreciate that people do it. It's just, it's never gonna be my thing. Nobody's ever gonna. I'm never gonna hear from a reader. I stayed up all night and I felt like I was there.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: I could smell it. Smell what she was smelling, you know?
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I don't get that at all.
So then. So then how did you make the transition from tv writing to novel writing? Because some people, when they give up tv, they go do something else completely.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: No, I still have a day job. Right.
So I had left. I decided to leave in 2011. My grandmother had passed away the year before. I was just like, living. If your family's all in like, New Jersey area and you're in California, like, it's not like you can just get in the car and drive there, like, you know, and be there in like 10 hours. It's a days long trip. It's not easy to get home. Time difference. I was missing too much stuff. So I came back and I was like, I'm gonna try to get a day job. So that was also a whole different thing of trying the transition of a day job. But I had the idea for what would become Hollywood homicide, my first, well, still in LA, and I took forever to work on it. So I had the idea. I had started it in NaNoWriMo in 2011, November, and I didn't finish it until 2014.
And I got into a program called Pitch wars, which no longer exists, but was amazing, which paired you up.
If you had a finished manuscript and no agent, it paired you up with a little further along. So they might have an agent, might have a book deal, and they help you revise your book for what they had. It was an agent showcase. So I did pitch wars.
Did the agent showcase. Agents could, like, read the first 250 words and then request more. And I had only two requests, and one of them turned out to be from my agent, Michelle Richter.
So, yeah, I can. I can didn't go into the hell that was trying to get it published, but that. That's happened. So that was, I think, 20, end of 2014 ish, that Michelle and I got connected. So we wrote ten years.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Did you enjoy. Let me say this, because, okay, I can write a book now, which is, I mean, I know how to write a book now, and it doesn't. It doesn't break my brain, but writing that first book took me years because I couldn't. Even though I had read thousands of books over dozens of years, it still was more. A more difficult process than it was just difficult. I don't know then I don't know what I thought was going to happen, but sitting down and writing a story was way more difficult than I had anticipated. Writing that first book.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: I will say I, every book is hard for me. Like, if you, I know you've seen my, ever emailed with you. If you look down at my signature, I hate writing. I love having written, which is a Dorothy Parker quote that has been my quote for over 20 years on my signature, had my Gmail account. And so I just, I hate writing, period. So no book is going to be easy. However, I'm like, I know you're from a former lawyer. I came from television. I came from journalism. Every, even now, every job I've ever had has been writing focus. It just has not, might have been creative.
And so I understand story. Like, that's one good thing about my degree from, you know, USC that took me forever to pay off is that it taught me how to write a story. So I think, you know, figuring out plots and stuff, it's stressful. But once I'm in the group, I like it.
So it wasn't, it wasn't hard in that sense of, like, I don't know what I'm doing. It was just hard in a sense that I just hate to, I hate writing. I don't want to do.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: So what do you hate about writing? Because I don't. Let me say this.
I like it. Some days I don't mind it. It's like dishes. Some days you're like. And some days you're like, I could not do that.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: No, never dishes either.
I just, the blank page scares me. That idea that you can do whatever you want scares me. It doesn't get me excited. I'm like, oh, I get to figure out the whole world today, have the basics established. It's different. So I'm like a super plotter. I've gotten a little. I've gotten better. But, like, my first book, 30 page single space, three act structure, outline.
The third act, when I was writing, you know, and so, and so that's the thing is like that safety net. Like, and actually I, on the flip, I love to rewrite.
I love to be like, I vomit draft and then I come and I clean it up. And so I love rewriting. But I, that first page, like, right now, I'm supposed to be working on a story in the next book. Everyone's like, my agent's waiting for it. My editor is waiting for it. I'm chilling. And it's just like, because I have no, I haven't figured it out yet. And I know I'll get there, but it's not happened yet.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: So, okay, so my brain, I have a completely different, I don't plot. I love to sit down. The first, like 20, 30,000 words are the joyous. That's the joy. You're like, look at this. You see, this is coming together. Then you have to write the book.
But, oh, I think I might enjoy it more.
So when you wrote. Okay, so you were saying, well, let me, I don't want to say how difficult, because I, well, I had a lot of difficulties with my first book and I had a great agent and lots of things, and I could not sell it in 2000, 2001. It was a long time ago, because at the time, I'll tell you, the agent I had now, I'll not name. Basically, editors were like, we're not really that interested in. With black characters.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Hello.
Welcome to I didn't tell it easy. That was what I was saying. So I've always loved crime. My mother is a huge crime fiction author. Like an author, a huge crime fiction reader. And she gave me free reign in her bookshelves. And I will forever appreciate my mom for that, obviously for other reasons too, but just because my love of reading was from my mother and she did not stop me. And I always joke like, I was reading Jackie Collins at eleven, but also I was reading cozies and crime fiction and Sue Grafton. And so my love of crime fiction comes from my mother being letting me read what I wanted to read.
And so I was just super naive where I was like, I also was lucky Amy, and that I'm a little younger than you, but not much. And so I was a teenager in the nineties and that's when, like, Walter Moseley had broken out and Terry McMillan and there's Barbara Neely and there's, there was, you know, Valley, Wilson Wesley. There's, it was like, that was like the first time that publishing was like, oh, black people like people. If you, we have a black character. Well, people will, you know, they might read it. And so then they were, they all, they made it a trend, you know? And of course, you said by the time you came around in the early two thousands, except for like, Walter and a couple other people, a lot of those black authors who I loved writing crime fiction as a teenager in the nineties weren't, weren't able to be published anymore because they treated it like a trend, right? And so I'm, I'm, you know, um, I have this book. I thought it was a cozy, it's just like lightweight, really, in my opinion. Super funny book. Kind of like a Stephanie Plum. And it's about a black woman who is like, called her a semi famous mega broke black actress. You know, she.
She starts. The whole book is about her trying to solve a hit and run. She happened to drive by for the reward money from the police, and the shenanigans happen. Right? And I had trouble getting an agent, you know, and I think they would like the pitch, the query, and then they would say no. And I think because in my original query, I didn't put she was black.
I think they saw the book and they realized she was black, and all of a sudden, the same thing, like, oh, it's not for me. Oh, blah, blah, blah.
And so I finally got my agent to Michelle Richter, who at that time was a baby agent at fuse literary, and it took us a year to sell it. Okay? And so every big publisher said no to it. And we did do a site revision, but then we went back out, and they still were saying no. And then finally, after a year, mid sized publisher, Midnight Inc. Terri Bischoff, this beautiful, lovely woman who gave so much, so many of us who weren't fitting the stereotypical trends and crime fiction a chance to write with her, with midnighting took a chance on it.
I got the deal in 2016. It came out August 8, 2020 17, you know, and it went. Ended up winning. It. Got starred, two starred reviews, book of the week, ended up winning all these awards, like the Anthony and the Agatha and the left. It was like, you know, when it came to critical, like, whatever the big things in crime fiction were, it did all that. And it was, again, the same really funny, lightweight book. And in Terry didn't do a lot of edits on it, you know? And it's like, I say that just to say that, I think sometimes with us, they go, oh, you're not. It's because you're not good enough. It's like, no, it's also. It's because we don't have the opportunities. Right? And so. But when I did that in 2017, Alexia Gordon came out the year before with her book with a small part of small press. And then my year, Valerie Burns and Patricia Sargent, who's writing as Olivia Matthews, they came out with their cozies, right? They can. They're both with Kensington. So they were not with the big five publishers.
Now, Rachel Housel hall was published with a big five publisher. Her book was the police procedural, but it was the only person. So they were not publishing black people back then. We were kind of like. We were. We were start. I will give ourselves. I'm gonna give us credit. We started this new wave, you know, and I think our success, I think, you know, we, again, what we're showing people, we weren't, we were not at Walter Mosley levels, but we were showing people that we can, you know, if you, if you publish us, people will read it.
[00:33:47] Speaker A: Right?
[00:33:49] Speaker B: That's, that's a struggle. And I think now, once again, it's, we're trendy. And I think we're all excited, but I think we're also afraid because, like, I saw the nineties, I know that forgot about us. But I don't, I don't want it to be trendy. I want it to be a status quo. I don't want to be a big deal that. I don't want to be a big deal that a person of color gets a book deal in Crimefix.
[00:34:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: I got another one. No big deal. I don't want that. We're not there yet, but I'm hoping we're getting there.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: So I guess then, but let me say this. Despite the, whatever, despite those hurdles or moving in that lane, your novel did very well. So I have a friend, I forget, I forget who her first publisher was, but they did not submit her for best first book for awards. And she's still salty about it like 20 years later because you can't do it the second time unless you change your pen name or something. But what despite, so with those struggles, were you, I don't want to say surprised. How did you feel about getting those best first book awards or best.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: I mean, I was excited about it. I think also just because at that time I wrote like, light, fun, very girly books, you know. And I think, you know, just, just like there's a racism problem and crime fiction, there's also sexism problem in crime fiction where people will say they don't. You can tell even if those who, some people have outright said that, you know, the cozies aren't, aren't real books. It aren't real serious crime fiction.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:22] Speaker B: You know, and so I didn't expect to have that success that I had, you know, especially with the Anthony award. Like I was up against Jordan Harper, amazing guy, really nice guy and had like, this huge book, you know, I forgot the name of it my mother has on her bookshelf and like, you know, on the Edgar for, you know, best, best first. And I was not expecting to beat that him, you know, with my cute little funny cozy. So it was a nice surprise, especially because it was such a hard struggle. I had wanted to write novels since I was five. I was just too scared. And so, like, I'm like, oh, I actually did it. And it's been, you know, it was accepted well. Was it a huge seller? No, but it was accepted well. Right. So that was, that was great and nice.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: So did you find it gratifying? I guess then to, so, you know, how can I say this? Many of us toil away endlessly in obscurity. And so to do the toil and then have, like, the barriers, but then have like, a really, I don't say great ending, it would make a great tv show, great movie to then, you know, to get to the struggle and then get the recognition. Was that gratifying?
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it is. It was definitely gratifying. But I do think also, I think sometimes people think because, you know, I, I knew a lot of debuts my year, you know, one thing about, I'm gonna start a group, right? So I started a group of debut off in 2017. And I think, you know, a lot of times I think when you think you get the book deal, you think it's going to be happily ever after, right? Like you're going to Harley Coburn and Michael Connolly and Stephen King.
And guess what? Most for 99.9% of us, that's not going to happen. So I think, I know because I was in Hollywood and I kind of knew that, again, that industry makes no sense. My expectations are a lot lower than other people's expectations. I mean, does that not mean I obviously still want to be a huge seller, but my, I wasn't assuming that that was gonna happen to me.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:21] Speaker B: So, you know, I, so I think I came into it a little, a little differently, you know, and just, again, even now, I think they're obviously still issues, you know, like, once you get published, just other concerns happen, you know, it's not like, oh, well, I get, once you get an agent, it's, oh, well, I get a book deal. Once you get a book deal, it's like, oh, will I, you know, will I get success? Will I?
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: Another book, though. I get good reviews. So the goalpost always moves.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: I try to tell people just, that's why it's really important for you to enjoy when you hit that goal post, because a lot of people don't get that. You know, as the farther along we go, the less people get it. You know, like most people get agents, and then out of those people who have agents, most, I'm not gonna say most, I don't know the numbers, but a lot of them don't get book deals. And then those who get that first book deal, a lot of them don't get a second book deal.
A lot of times that, you know, so it's like you have to, every time you hit a goal post, enjoy it because the odds get harder and harder for you.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: It's so true. So then I'll ask you this, because you, well, okay, this has happened to, I'm going to say universally, probably 99% of the writers I know, but how did you feel when your imprint stopped, I don't want to say closed, but stopped accepting new publisher, new writers? Excuse me, don't.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: The honest answer.
Yeah, I was, again, I don't care.
I was three books in. It was a three book deal. Right. And first, the first, the first book went good. Right. And it was, I think, I think they were also surprised at how acclaimed it was. Right, right. Second book. That's when the issue started happening. I think also the rose colored glasses were offered me where I was like a good example, because it's not Terry's fault. My second book was supposed to come out a year after my first, and I had done everything I needed to do. I had got it in on time and I had done that. And I happened to email them a question. This is not Terry. This is someone else who worked there. And he's like, oh, by the way, your book's not going to be in stores tomorrow.
Oh, by the way, that's, oh, by the freaking way. Like, you know, if you know that there was some quote unquote issue with the printer and I've been busting my butt to promote this book, people are excited about it because of the second. The first book did so well. You know, you are just going to tell me the day before, by the way, it's not coming out. It's not going to be in stores, like, stuff like that. It's just kind of like, this doesn't seem right. And like they would want me to go places but also pay out of pocket. And not saying that your publisher should have to pay for you to go everywhere, but if you want me to go to an event to help you promote stuff, at least like, give me some gas money. Right. So there were just certain, I was starting to feel very much like, oh, this is not, oh, this is not working for me. And so, and I was at a point where I was, like, writing the third book and I was behind on a deadline and I was just kind of like, what am I going to do with this contract? Because I still love this series. I still love these people, like, the people in the series. But, like, am I going to. It was also really hard to write that, the third book. So I was making the same jokes. It was hard to keep it fresh. And I was kind of like, okay. The intent was to become, like, a Jan Ivanovitch and have, like, 20 books in this day series. But I'm struggling elements of writing the third book. My publisher, they're doing things that I don't. It's not making me feel appreciated.
Like, what am I gonna do in this third. This contract is up, right? Am I going to try to renew it? Am I going to try to get a new contract or do a new series, write something different? And, like. But again, like, I'm a black woman. I know how long it took me to write that, to get that first contract. It would be dumb for me to walk away from more book contract with the publisher.
All these emotions. I think that's also why the book was late, because I was just like, what am I gonna do? And then, like, three days before my birthday, we get an email from Terry's saying, because she didn't even know. Oh, they closed well, and closed midnighting, you know, and I was like, oh, Harvey was sad about it because I. I love working with Terry. And they did. They did. They didn't. They? They got me my dream, and I will always appreciate Llyn for that. Otherwise, I was like, oh, I am. This decision has been made for me. Right?
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Yes, that's true. That. I guess that is true.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: That is true. I will not be writing any more data books because the publisher is closing. Like, you know, and so that that was, that, like, was made for me. And I was like, okay, well, let me just, you know, realize that that's been taken out of my hands. And I had this new opportunity. Mind you, it took me four years to publish another book, but it was, it was, you know, it was bittersweet.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I mean, it's happened so well. I actually know a lot of people in crime fiction. It's happened too. Let me not say that. Especially a lot of cozy imprints and then prime crime. Well, we could go into that. But it's happened with a ton of people I know in the romance community and depending on where you are in your careers, depending on how devastating it feels to you. So if it's, like, book one, and I've known people, you know, they sold a book and they closed to tomorrow, that's really devastating. If you're, like, a few books in. Or this is your third publisher. You know what I mean? Then you're like, okay, let me put the shoes on and, like, keep walking to the next thing.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: But it's always going to continue.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: But it's still, it happened to me. I mean, it's still.
I wasn't a shock so much, because when it happened to me with one of the imprints, we were, they were, you remember, I don't know, yahoo groups and so other authors, you know, we were talking, so the writing was more or less on the wall. And then the question is, what do you do next? And that was, you know, that's about that publisher. But it still is disconcerting because the plans that you were making have to be. Remember sitting here? It was 2014, I think. I remember sitting here thinking, okay, so now what? You know, like, okay, now what?
And that's. It's hard looking back years now. It's easy. It's what. It's. You can get through it, but it's still not world's best situation.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: So I think the other thing, it's like, it's also, I feel like you have, sometimes you have to think long term, and I think that. That a lot of times we will think short term. Right? Like, it's like, long term. What's long term? What's best for me in terms of, like, okay, like, this. Short term, it would be best for me to do, like, publish this book with this publisher that I know is not probably gonna close. Right. But it might be better for me to. Not to say no to that contract and, you know, maybe have to wait a little longer, like a year, but have a contract with a better publisher. So things like that, which is, again, it's really tricky because you never know still, because there's no reason to this industry at all. But I try to think not just short term, but long term. Like, what is best for me long term, even, like, when I found I chose Mulholland for my sister, I was thinking long term, this is the best publisher for me.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: That's so interesting. It took me years to have that ability to see that, because it. Because I think it's hard because you're writing a book, at least for me. And I caught in the Wheatley, caught in the weeds of writing an actual book, and then to back away and then also think about writing as a career. Those are two. That's, to me, I find it. I found it difficult. Now.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: I saw some interview that some author did, and she's mentioned author hat and writer hat. And they're two different hats, right? Like, a writer hat is. Yet that's the person who's at the computer writing the book. But sometimes you gotta take that writer hat off and put the author hat on, and that's the business person.
And that's a struggle, too, trying to balance both.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: It took me, but I feel like, to be honest, it took me maybe, like, 510 years to not feel attacked personally by every wind that blew by.
And now I care so much less, but I used to care so much more, and now I'm like, eh, it comes and goes, and tomorrow it'll be something different. So. Okay, so let me ask you this. I have two different things I want to ask you about. Let me ask you this.
Okay, let's go back. What made you.
Okay, you're one of the founding members of crime writers of color. And what possessed you to do that? Because I won't say this. I will never get up tomorrow morning and think, I should start a group.
But what possessed you to do that? Because it's a very interesting group. I actually have no idea how I heard of it or became involved. That's one of those things that, like, I thought about it yesterday, and I was like, I have no idea. Somebody must have told me. Obviously, I don't live in, like, you know, things don't come down from the sky. But what possessed you to do that? Because it's a very interesting idea. There has not been one for romance that I know of, and now I think we should have one. But. Okay. But what made it come. Come to pass?
[00:46:19] Speaker B: I always just been. I wanted just to, like, just doer when it comes to things like that. Not writing, but when it comes to things like that. But also, I had.
When I came out. So I kind of got into the industry around 2014, as I mentioned, I was in this group called Pitch wars. And the great thing about pitch wars was that someone started a group for all the mentees in our class, and it was great because we were all in the same place, and so we can commiserate with each other. Right, right. And we could also kind of ask each other questions and create a safe space. And then the other thing is, I was a member of sisters in crime, and I was. I joined the Guppies chapter, and those are how I made my first friends. And the Guppies chapter of sisters and crime is intended for. It's called the great unpublished. It's, again, intended for those of us people who were not published yet. It's gotten way bigger than that. But that was the intent. Again, it's a place to, you know, commiserate, ask questions, get advice, help each other out. And so I was legit. Surprised, Amy, that there was not a crime writers of color, like, 2016. I'm like, why isn't there one? And so I had started conversation with Gigi Ponzi and who had been with Midnight, Inc. And who was just so nice to me. Like, I had read. I'd been reading her for years, met me at malice, invited me to coffee, offered to blurb my book. She was just so nice to me. And I was like, this is what I like. This is what we need, helping each other out, being able to talk to each other. And then someone else had told me, Naomi Hirohara had put on a comment that Walter Moseley wanted to start a group. And I was like, that's great, but, like, how am I ever gonna meet Walter Mills? Like, we don't hang out in the same circles. And then, Amy, this time it was fate. The week later, I got invited to do an event with him, and I was like, oh, I can meet Walter. I'm gonna tell him. So when I met him, I said to him, I want to start a group. He said. He called me. We just were talking. And his thing is, I guess, Eleanor Taylor Bland, who was, again, in that wave with him when she. When she was alive, she was the organizer. And so she was the one who kept Walter and Valerie and Gar Anthony Haywood, like, together and to do events and stuff. And then when she passed away, unfortunately, no one really took up this, like, oh, we need. We. I. He enjoyed that with what, Eleanor? Did he want to recreate that? And so, um, the group started in summer of 2018, and I invited everyone I knew, and Gigi invited everyone she knew. Walter invited everyone he knew. And so it started off with 30 people, you know, and, like, same thing where it's like, I don't. I used. I was very actively recruiting, so I don't. Depending on when you joined, I might have recruited you, and. But then I. At this point anymore, and so either.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: It's so weird.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Like, it's like, you know, like, someone like Wanda Moore's like, oh, I was at an event. I met this black woman, or this asian woman who is, you know, wants to write crime fiction. I told her about the group, you know, and so now we have over 400 members. 450. And so, you know, and I think, I don't know how active you are in it, but it's like, it's so great because it is such a safe space, you know, where we all, we're all equals, you know, like someone who's just starting out could ask a question and like, literally, Naomi, her harae or Vaseem Khan will respond with their advice, or Dorothy will respond with advice. And it's like we're all equal. And it's truly an amazing safe space, you know, where if anything, it's too active. But I'm happy because I'm glad people feel so comfortable that they can kind of come in and ask questions or my favorite thread is what we call the good news thread, where any good news you have, you put it in there, and we all cheer for you. Like that. That to me, is just, I'm so glad that's the space that we've created. I think it's exceeded Walter and Gigi and my expectations. And we're just so in awe, you know? And to kind of like, we're getting recognitions. Like, mystery writers of America gave us an award.
Voucher Cons is giving us an award this year. Like, it's. It's exceeded all expectations. So it's amazing.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Okay, so my other. So this is going to take a turn. There's no good way to segue it. So last week. This week, I'm sorry, this whole working at home writing. I have no sense of day and time.
I read missing white woman. Okay, I have some questions. So what? Okay, let me ask you this.
Is there. Well, no, let me say this. One of the things I've been thinking about over the last, let's say, six months, probably a year, is the idea of social thrillers that. Thrillers that also, I don't say, have a social message. I don't want to make it sound preachy or after school and specialist, but sort of take on a topic that people otherwise wouldn't talk about in the context of crime fiction.
But I have no idea what was your. What was the catalyst or what was the thought behind the story.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: I got the idea. I was at a friend's house. I was doing a writer's retreat house in Baltimore. It was like a four story row house working like a sister, and she was not there. And I have a very overactive imagination. And I literally was on the third floor bedroom. And I was like, I could go downstairs tomorrow and find a dead body and have no idea how it got there. And her neighbors would be like, who are you? Why did you kill someone? So that's the idea behind this woman.
I'm a black woman. I write black women, you know, and I don't necessarily like my job. I don't think we have to always write about racism. You know, I don't think we always message behind our stories. However, as a black woman writing a black woman in America, there are going to, it's going to have certain racial undertones just because it just, it would be really unrealistic. Like, me walking up to a cop, it's going to just be a different feeling than a white woman walking up to a cop. Or especially me as a black woman walking up to a cop is going to have a different feeling than a black man walking up to a cop. Right. So I think to ignore that would not be a true book, you know? And I think I've always been fascinated with missing white woman syndrome, which is the idea that when missing women, white women go, white women go missing or something happens to them, it gets a lot more media coverage than when black and brown women get, go missing or murdered or things like that.
And, like, I'm older, I'm 40. I keep saying I'm 46. I'll be 46 soon, but I'm not 46. I'm 45 in the early, like, laci Peterson disappeared Shonda Levy. And so I was so fascinated because I'm like, when people your age disappear, like, oh, wait. Like, I. People, I can be in danger, you know? And I didn't right away that, like, all the news was always white women and didn't have two years, usually just white women. And so I just kind of thought it would be interesting to kind of take that trope in domestic suspense. Missing women is such a trope of domestic suspense, but it really is.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: What is, like, what is the black perspective? Right. You know, and it's, if I wanted to do a missing black woman book, you know, it would be a different book in terms of media coverage. Like, there would be not as much. Right. But I really should take that missing beautiful blonde trope that you see and, like, you see it in gone girl. Right. But what is the black perspective? How, how do I put it? A black woman in this situation, and that the thought was like, oh, she's the person who found her. She's the person that people are thinking that was involved. Her boyfriend. Her and her boyfriend were involved in it, and how was that going to affect her when they were? And she's trying to figure out what happened. And so that's what the idea came from. And there's a huge, you know, we're saying social thrills. I thought you meant social media at first because there is such a social media element.
[00:53:59] Speaker A: Yes.
And that part of, I'm gonna be honest, I don't partake of social media a lot. So for me, that was, I'd have to really think about it because I was like, I know there's, like, TikTok, and I know there's Twitter or X, and I know that it has an impact on people. It's just not my experience of life. So I was like, actually, I was really, after reading, I was like, so can they bring more attention on something? Yes. Is the attention positive, good or productive? And that was a different thing. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna think about. Because I hadn't thought about it, because I grew up in the, I was telling my son today, I grew up, you know, we had, like, I lived in New York City, so we had, like, you know, three networks and, like, you know, three independents and, like, PBS. I mean, it wasn't that many channels, so. And to be went off at night. So, you know, the attention was very focused and very limited. But with social media, it can be diffuse, but people can bring a lot of attention to things that otherwise would not get it in mainstream media. And I hadn't considered that, especially with the whole amateur sleuths being so popular right now as well with podcasts and that kind of thing. And I was like, ugh, that seems, that seems like a lot. It felt like a lot. I was like, that's a lot that I haven't thought about why? And I was asking this. I read a couple of the books this summer with missing women, and I I've noticed it's popular, and I'm trying to figure out, and maybe you haven't thought about why it's so popular. Part of me wonders why it's so popular. And part of me wonders.
[00:55:34] Speaker B: I think.
[00:55:35] Speaker A: We should do something about.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: It's your own personal fears, right? Like, I can't. Like, I think as a woman, like, I walk, even the street I walk down, I I'm like, that street's a little too dark, or that street's a little too, like, you know, it's too, too empty, right? I always say that, like, if I'm walking down the street and I see one man behind me, I'm like, what is it? The whole comment, like, you go, there was, I don't know if that hit where you were, but it's been a whole discourse in the US recently. If you're, if you're a woman and you're alone in the forest, would you rather encounter a bear or a man.
Right. And most of them are saying you'd rather encounter the bear.
Okay. And so that's the thing is, like, for me as a woman, is the world is not a scary place. However, it's this place where I have to. I feel like I always have to be on guard to keep myself safe. And so I think when it comes to certain things. Like what? Like what, what our biggest fears when it comes to being a woman, I think are going to be a little different than biggest fears when it comes to being a man. Like, you know, like, I, like, for instance, like, I always, like, I live in New Jersey, I work in New York City. So I, like, I'll go on the subway, and I'll see a man sleeping on the subway. And I'm like, are you see, like, like, imagine feeling so safe in your world that you feel like you could go to sleep in a public place.
Okay.
I'd be literally so afraid for my life to go to sleep in a public place. Like, I don't know if I'd been robbed, raped, kidnapped, killed like that. Those are my fears. Like, it could be three in the morning, I get a party all night, and I'm gonna be wide awake with my. On the subway, both hands touching, like, gripping my backpack in a hug so no one takes it and runs, you know? So I think that that, to me, is like, what are the common fears you have? And let's put that in a book and a different story. So.
[00:57:31] Speaker A: Okay. I'm gonna have to think about that because it's. I'm going to be honest. It's not something I think about, but probably because I don't go out at night. I mean, I, you know, I'm a morning person and I don't.
[00:57:41] Speaker B: I mean, if you go, you don't go like five in the morning and, like, by yourself, do you?
[00:57:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I go biking in the morning, like six, seven am, but I'm moving on a bicycle.
But I'm a morning person. To me, the morning always feels safe, but I. Okay, that just may be my feeling.
[00:57:58] Speaker B: Are you.
[00:58:05] Speaker A: Okay? I'm really gonna think about it because I'm gonna be honest. Like, I read a book called local woman missing, like, America, like a book a few weeks ago. And I thought to myself, they were talking about who's missing and whether her husband killed and then somebody else went missing. And I thought, maybe you should look into the fact that women go missing and not be, like, nitpicking about who this person is. And all of that, but I'm gonna, I will think about it differently because it's not, that is not the, I have a lot of fears, and that's not on my list.
Okay. You answered that question. So let me say this. How this is gonna be my last question, but what do you anticipate for your future, do you think?
Okay, I will say this. It feels like your first book in this book are, they're not diametrically opposed, but they're very different. They're still crime books, but they're very different.
[00:58:53] Speaker B: That question I'm dealing with, and I think I'm having a question of conscience of what's right next. I feel bad. My poor editor, who's not even my editor technically anymore, because I'm out of contract, like, with maternity leave, and I was, like, still about to go on maternity leave, and I was, like, literally bugging her with questions and thoughts and things like that.
I think I want to try to do something kind of bridge the gap between the super light world of my first two books, and I don't write dark. I'll never write dark. Even my second two, standalone, they're not dark. Right. Like, they're about murder and investigating, but, like, there's not, like, a torture or abuser or rape or anything. Right. Like, so they're still there. Books you can read at night or on the beach. I kind of want to bridge that gap and kind of do something that's a little bit lighter, you know, a bit more fun.
I have an idea. I just have to, again, I hate, I hate this process. I have to figure out what, what I have the hook. I got to figure out what the story is.
[00:59:49] Speaker A: So. Mm hmm.
Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, I will say this. I'm at the, I'm actually at the same point, I was talking to a friend the other day, and she's like, what are you gonna write next? I'm like, I have a thought, but it's different, and I'm not sure.
Yeah, I have a thought. A thought is not a book.
[01:00:08] Speaker B: Exactly. People think it is.
[01:00:11] Speaker A: I know. All I have is a thought, and that's not gonna be 60, 70, 80,000 words. It's Amelia thought and maybe half a title. So, yeah, I'm gonna, it's, how do you feel being at a crossroads? I will say that I hate it.
[01:00:26] Speaker B: I'm, again, I hate writing. I think I was really lucky, Amy, that, like, I had the idea for Hollywood homicide, and it clicked. I knew what I wanted ending. I had the, when I got the idea for, like, a sister clicked. When I got the idea for missing women, it clicked, and I haven't clicked yet. And that's freaking me out.
[01:00:45] Speaker A: Well, how can you say this? Because I have a friend who's very Zen. Have you made peace with the uncertainty?
[01:00:51] Speaker B: God, I have not.
Okay. I'm, like, friends with Walter Moseley now, which blows my mind. Like, we're friends. Like, call and check on me. And we were at breakfast and recently, and I was literally complaining to him about this, and he was just like, why don't you just open up the document and write a sentence? And I was like, that works for you? Walter Burlesley, very, very, very, very well does not work for me. But I, like, love that he was just like, open up the document and write a sentence. Like, God. I was like, I'll try again. I'll try.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: He's making pizza.
[01:01:35] Speaker B: He's the person. Like, Walter loves writing. Like, literally, like. Like, he gets up every day excited to write. Like. And, like, I. He thinks I'm. He thinks I'm so weird because I hate it. And so obviously, it works really well for him, but I'm just not that person.
[01:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. If I love to write. I'm gonna think about that. It's what I do, and if I don't do it, I feel crazy. But that's also true for exercise. I mean, there's a lot of other things that I feel the need, I feel compulsion to sort of do, to keep. Keep it sane in here. But I. So I enjoyed missing white woman. I look forward to your next book, and I want to thank you so much for chatting with me today.
[01:02:14] Speaker B: It was a fun convo. You had to be very honest. So obviously they're good interviewers. So thank you.
[01:02:21] Speaker A: Honesty is what I traffick in. My readers have mixed feelings about that, so they really do, because I get all the emails. But it was great talking to you, and I'm so glad that you spent the time.
[01:02:36] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[01:02:38] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:02:43] Speaker C: This has been a time to thrill with me. Your host, author, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in Nicole long series are now live. You can download, outcry witness major crimes without consent and the murders began to your e reader right now I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library, and also an audiobook. My next book, his last mistress, is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. Eagalthrillerauthor. You can find me on tiktokocialthrillerauthor. You can also find this podcast on Facebook. Athenae a time to thrill thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.
