Episode 48: A Time to Thrill – Conversation with Aime Austin – featuring Pippa Grant

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to a time to thrill. It's me, your host, Navey Austin. It is July, and I'm about to share the best interview with you. So this month, I have a great conversation with romantic comedy author Pippa Grant. So it starts like they all do. We talk about this during the podcast, actually. So I met Pippa in Houston at a conference called the Romance author Mastermind in 2018. And by 2019, we're at a beach house sharing a room. And actually, she's the only Arthur with whom I've ever shared a room. I think there may have been somebody else in the room with us. I remember her being there, but that's it. So I'm an only child. I'm not so much with the room sharing, but renting a beach house, these beach retreats. Look, we're adult women. We like our own space, but the number of houses available where everybody can have their own room and bathroom are not a billion of them. And because we decided to do this after we were at the conference in Houston, our options were limited. So we were on in a place called Galveston Island. I know we took a ferry, but I don't think it's an isolated island. I think it's a peninsula. I should look this up before I do all this, because now you're going to email me and tell me where Galveston island was. So we rented two houses side by side, and I shared a room with Pippa. It was fine. I don't know what the deal was. I know that I just put in my ear pods at night and listen to podcasts to fall asleep. So whether or not somebody's there with me was not particularly relevant. As long as she didn't snore or something. And I don't think she did. I just honestly don't remember. I just remember, like, it's the only time I've ever shared a room. And I was like, okay, well, like, I'm old, but I can probably hack it. And actually, Pippa was delightful. I actually, I only remember the fact that she was there. I have literally no other memories. So it must have all been delightful and wonderful. So Pippa is. How can I say this? There are so many authors I know and so many of whom you've heard on this podcast who were very, very, very successful, but only a couple of them changed what they did to ramp up their success. The first is someone I interviewed, like, probably a couple years ago, an author named Theodora Taylor. And she, too, was writing and decided, like, her books were hit or miss success wise. And she decided that she was going to think about how to be more successful, and she was able to do it. She writes in the interracial romance space. It seems very niche to me, but it's very, very popular. And once she hit on the way to do that, she became very successful. She actually wrote two books about that specifically, and I'll link to that particular episode in the show notes. So she is one. The other one is Pippa Grant, who writes in the romantic comedy space. These are two spaces I do not write in. I will never write in. It's beyond me. Like I'm in my own world over here. When I wrote romance, it was just, I hate we always say straight on this show because that's how we refer to it, but we actually don't mean straight. Heterosexual, although it's just basically heterosexual cysts romance with people who are usually in their thirties or under, because that's what used to sell in traditional publishing very well. And that's where I started, and I never really got past it. I believe I wrote one interracial romance, no, three, four, okay, maybe five. I don't know. I have to really think about it. But it was not the traditional interracial romance, which is usually black women and white men. I wrote one of those, and the rest, I believe one heroine was asian and the other three, the hero, is asian. No, four. But one was a trilogy. Whatever. I'm really digressing. Those books were not greatly successful. So that's why I don't write romance anymore. So what I thought was fascinating is these are two women, and today it's Peppa who sat down and were like, I need to do this better or differently or in a different way to achieve the kind of success I want. And they did it. And knowing them both before and after that is absolutely fascinating because most of the people I encountered, like, and you've heard some of them on the show, like, they published early in the indie space, like 2010, 20, 2011, 2012. They did it because other people were doing it, but they didn't have any real, like, hope or prayer on it. And they woke up one day. I'm sure you've heard two or three of these interviews because I know these people personally because I talk to them often. They woke up one day and they had a million dollars. So that's a different trajectory. That's more of a, I guess, the right book at the right time trajectory where Pippa will talk in this interview about writing the books that we're not doing as well. And then plotting a course to change that. And it's, I love to watch people say they're gonna do something and then do it brilliantly. It is like the most fascinating thing. And that's something I wanted to share with listeners. She's also an absolutely lovely and delightful person. She's really funny. She's really personable. I mean, we're all like, in our house hermits, but when we're out and about, she's delightful, personable. I think you'll love this interview. Let's see about me, and then I'll get right back to it. So right now, I have finished up the book, his last mistress. It's still in pre order for January. It needs, you know, stuff happen, has to happen between the writing and the publishing, and that's what's going to happen over the next six months. All the other 14 books that Casey court and Nicole long series are out there. You can download them at any time, library, bookstore, ebook, whatever your pleasure. You can get them in various formats. And I would appreciate pre ordering his lost mistress. I'm really, I have been working on, so let me say this. The thriller genre has changed and matured over the years, and I'd like to think that I have kept up with that change and that maturity. So this book, his last mistress, sort of reflects that, the way that thrillers have changed in the next few years. So where I used to write no dead bodies, now we have dead bodies, not plural. We have one dead body. There is another book. I think I had more. We have a dead body. We have. Everybody's walking around looking as guilty as sin and a couple of plot twists. It's been sort of fun to dip my toe into that water. After that, I honestly don't know what's next. I will keep you posted, but I'm like a few irons in the fire thinking about a few things, and we'll see what comes next. In the meantime, please enjoy this amazing conversation with Pippa Grant. Hi, and welcome to a time to thrill. This is me, your host, Amy Austin. This month, I have the utter delight of interviewing romance author Pippa Grant. Hi, Pippa. [00:08:04] Speaker B: Hi, Amy. [00:08:06] Speaker A: It's so good to talk to you. Okay, so usually I start the podcast thanking people for what they've done in my career. I haven't known you that long because I started my career like a thousand years ago, and I'm starting to feel like a dinosaur. But I will say this because I think I think of you, like, basically once a week. It's because some years ago, you suggested the podcast, normal gossip. [00:08:30] Speaker B: Oh, I love that podcast. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So I was listening to it. So they usually have, like, a hiatus. I feel like they've been back two or three weeks, and I was listening to it this week. They were talking about, oh, I can't even remember. It's in my head. But I was, you know, my. [00:08:42] Speaker B: My assistant thanked me, and she was like, you need to listen to this week's normal gossip. And I haven't yet, and I can't remember either. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Last week was the mushrooming, but this week is not mushrooming. It's something different. But every time it comes on, I think, well, I think Pippa, because now she has entertained me to and from. I usually listen Saturday morning, driving to and from the biking at the beach. You don't need all that information. But I'm, like, on my way to the beach and listening to normal gossip, then I might listen to the other half on the way back. But while I'm on pico getting to Ocean Avenue. [00:09:20] Speaker B: I am honored like that. Normal gossip is one of the greatest joys in my life. Maybe not one of the greatest, but I enjoy. Forget chocolate. Give me normal gossip. No, it's so fun. It's so fun. I love to share it with people because it cracks me up. [00:09:38] Speaker A: It cracks me up. It's so fun because I love. I don't. I. As a rule, I generally don't gossip because I have a lot of feelings about that as a person. I, like, I saw something 20 years ago about, like, how gossip can, like, tell you a lot of, like, things about people. And I was like, I think I'm not gonna gossip. So constantly. I don't gossip, and so I don't get much gossip because people don't share it with me. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:57] Speaker A: And then what this is, like, gives me, like, a glimpse into people's, like, real lives without me having to be gossiping. So it really provides that for me. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. The podcast has changed my entire philosophy on good and bad gossip, because when you. When you start to consider. When you start to consider things like you, it's a whisper network thing, right? Like, especially in the writing world, there are, like, when you're looking for an agent, right? There are things that you're not going to find online. You have to be like, I am searching for an agent, and have you ever worked with this person before? And, like, if somebody's had a bad experience, they're not going to put that online, but they're going to talk with you privately, and I don't know if that's gossip or if that's just information, but it's one of those things where it's like, who's safe, who's not? And I always, like, anytime I hear a story now, if it's a little incredible, I'm like, but is this real? You know what I mean? [00:10:56] Speaker A: Okay, so I will say this. As far as the Whisper network goes, I think that's really important. But I think mainly, I do think of it in writing. When you say writing, I realize I do. So, like, recently, I talked to an editor. Well, now I can't say who I talked to an editor. And the first thing I was like, well, before I do the zoom call, let me text a few people and ask them what they think about this editor. So I do do that because it's about money, but to me, that's really, like, important. But the Esper network, like, in LA, in New York, was most mostly about, like, the Harvey Weinstein tech guys. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:28] Speaker A: That I've always thought was really important, because there's no, like, everybody who is subject to an NDA. So that's about safety. It's about safety. So safety and money. I will engage in gossip about. Because to me, that's really important. But whether or not so and so was, like, at the bar with someone, so I gotta let that go. Yeah. [00:11:49] Speaker B: No, sometimes if I hear a really funny story about someone, I will share it with particular people that I know are safe to share it with. And I will always preface it with, someone told me this, and I have no idea if it is true or not. So I am telling you this purely for entertainment value, and not because I'm actually putting any stock in it, but it made me laugh. It made me gasp. And I thought you would enjoy the same experience. So it's less about actually, like, what happened, and more about the joy of sharing a story that cracks people up. And that's one of the things I love most about normal gossip. It's like all of these stories with the twists and the turns, and I didn't see that coming. And I. I listened to one about an hoa, a homeowners association, and it not only took me down a rabbit hole, it then inspired an entire half of a backstory for a character one time. And it was. It's just. It's so fun, and it's outside the normal world that I live in because I'm such a homebody. Like, given a choice, I will sit at home in my pajamas and sip tea all morning and just watch the world go by and then eventually switch to, like, water and occasionally wine and watch the world go by. [00:12:57] Speaker A: And that would be, like, my entire day. I just finished the tea. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I finished my tea a few hours ago, but, yeah. Yeah, now that would be, like, left to my own devices, I would do that. So just having something that brings in story from other places is amazing. I am working on getting out more and exploring the world more and enjoying it more because I think that helps with filling the. Well, with the creativity. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yes. So. Well, let me ask you this, because the reason. Okay. Most authors I've interviewed read a lot as a kid. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:13:34] Speaker A: And I read for two reasons. One was entertainment. Because I need to pass. I'm an only child. Like, you know, I had, like, a lot of time alone, so I needed to pass a lot of time. But the other was that I really wanted a glimpse into people's lives. So when I was a kid, like, at night, I lived in New York City. So there was, like, something you'd walk when it was dark outside or something. I had a dog, so I'd walk the dog. And, you know, you could see, like, the lights are on in people's houses. And I would always, like, look in people's houses, see what they're doing. Like, 95% of people are watching television, to be honest. So. Yeah, like, that's not that interesting. But I. The blue. Well, it used to be blue. I don't know what color it is now, but the blue glow you would see but one. But I always wanted to know, like, what's really going on. Like, I just. And so books for me were that, like, they were that gateway into, like, oh, well, this is what happens if x happens. And this is what happens if y happens. And it's sort of one of the reasons I write. Like, what would happen if. But I don't want to have to die, get cancer, be cheated on. Like, I don't want any of the things to happen to me that happened to them, you know, be facing jail time. Like, none of those things. Right. Ever want to do. But I do want to know more about the experience of people who do that. So in terms of, like, since we're talking about the normal gossip, when you were reading as a kid, what were you looking for? [00:14:55] Speaker B: I was looking for friends. Like, that sounds, like, so bad. I went to a school, kindergarten through 8th grade, with a very, very small class. And I don't know if you do the Clifton strengths thing with Becca Sime, where, like, you figure out, yeah, I'm very very. [00:15:14] Speaker A: I know. [00:15:15] Speaker B: I love it so much. Like, that's honestly the first advice I give to new writers is figure out what your process is, and if you need help, like, sign up for the better fester academy. Go take some classes, learn to embrace who you are, because that's going to make your whole journey a lot less convoluted. [00:15:30] Speaker A: I think I did it. Yeah, but go ahead. Yeah, yeah. [00:15:34] Speaker B: I'm very high relator, and I was in such a small school and, like, I didn't know this when I was in grade school, clearly. But looking back in retrospect, it's like I was finding friends in the books because I didn't have the people that I connected with in school because it was such a small pool of people. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Because my son's case, six was 16 kids. 17. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I graduated, I think I was one of 13 when we graduated 8th grade, 17 now. And it was like, you know, in like the small, like kindergarten, first grade, it was like 25 to 30 kids, but like, it just gradually dropped off. And so by the time. Yeah, by the time, like, I. We lived half an hour from the library. Half an hour. We lived half a mile. We lived half a mile from a public library. And so as soon as I was old enough to stay home by myself in the summer, I would read two books from the library, ride my bike to the library, swap out for four books, go home, read two books that afternoon, read two books in the morning, lather, rinse, repeat, you know, and it was like, it was almost, it was my social life for the whole entire summer. [00:16:41] Speaker A: And I find your people in books because that's. Yeah, well, we're not going to get into representation and all that, but I don't know. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'm a cis white hat woman. I see myself everywhere. That's, that's. Yeah. [00:16:54] Speaker A: To me, I think it was more a look into. I didn't, I didn't get that sense from books, but that's a different. I really think about it because I was looking, I was just nosy. Like, I don't know. Yeah, related. I think relator is one of those things is at the bottom, like next to woo. And I'm like, I don't even know what this is. No, minus, no, it's like minus input, discipline, like, you know, and then all of the, like, intellection ones are the ones at the top. So I spent a lot of time thinking about things, not so much doing or talking to anybody about it. Okay, so what were your favorite books as a kid. [00:17:26] Speaker B: I loved Nancy Drew and Trixie Belden, which I think is super old because that definitely even predated me when I was reading them. And I loved Judy Bloom and Beverly Cleary and Eb white. And, I mean, like, when I was young, that was what you were given to read, you know, in those elementary school years. It's so fun watching my kids now because they're like, fifth grade, 7th grade, 10th grade. Sorry, I had to do math. And my fifth grader, avid, avid bookworm. And they get to read so much more freely in school now. So she'll be like, yeah, I get to, like, read Rick Riordan. And she came home with a book and she's like, look, look, the PTA gave me a present because I'm a fifth grader. They sent it home with me. And I found out later, like, the PTA gave the same book to everyone and she finished it. And she says, that was the most horrible book I have ever read in my life because they died. [00:18:27] Speaker A: Oh, God. [00:18:28] Speaker B: It's like, she would not have picked that one. She would not have picked that one on her own. She did read it, you know, but, yeah, it just didn't feel like there were. [00:18:35] Speaker A: Oh, babysitter club. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And like, oh, you must be in. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah. The Sweet Valley high. Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker B: I was always told Sweet Valley High was too mature for me. And so I never started it, even in high school. [00:18:48] Speaker A: But it was very, like, I'm sure it was. It's like tv sitcom. Like, there's no. I don't say there's no death. There's no death. You know, they every, like I said, I swear to God, because I used to buy the books, like, if they feel like they're expensive. But I did, like, shell it out of my allowance. The ones, several months I hit 50, and then my mother cut me off. She's like, do you need 51? And, I mean, most books I took from you and most books I got from the library, but I became a completist about series books. Yes. And so you buy it, and I swear to God, the book is probably 40,000 words. Like, as an adult, I see that. But it was like, it was Jessica and Elizabeth. I know. Yes. And one was good ish, and one was baddish, and they sometimes switched. And then there was a guy, but it was really, like, pretty tame. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Judy Bloom was a little. A lot more depth. Especially the books. Oh, especially like wifey or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:46] Speaker B: I found forever at my neighbor's house. And I read it and I was like, I don't think I was supposed to do like there was a ton of guilt because if Sweet Valley High was too much for me, then I can promise you that at eleven or twelve years old, my parents would have been horrified. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Wait, so when did you start reading romance? Because I started reading romance about. Hold on, let think. I have to think. I was 1213. I remember, I mean, I can see myself in my room, but I remember reading and because of the age I was, it was like 19, 83, 84. Romance was pretty tame. I didn't know that historical had sex and I didn't read historical. Actually still kind of don't. But they started ratcheting up the sex and ratcheting down the abusive man rope or the, you know, the sort of a hole hero or alpha hole or whatever. Yeah, but were they too mature? You know, let me say this. When I was a kid, if you had a book in your hand, nobody said anything to you. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:46] Speaker A: So as long as I was reading, I remember people asking me about the covers because, you know, we didn't have covers and all, you know, there's no kindle and all that. And they're like, oh, you're reading that? And I don't think anybody ever said, nobody ever said Bhadisha Brown. They heard that later in life. Nobody said anything. They just were like, oh, and then they would go do their thing and see room reading. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Were they too mature? I think about this now because there's a lot of discussion about whether or not romance, and in the case now, they're talking about Disney princesses and that kind of thing. But there are fewer of those movies when I was a kid than there are now. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah, they were very heavily focused on. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Romance effect on women's perception of how they should be treated by men. And I don't like, I spend, well, not too much time thinking about it. It's one of the things that sort of crosses my mind from time to time and I can never land on whether or not, because I think for the most part we all know, like, and I'm putting quotes around this, that books are fantasy. And one of the things that, like, another author I know I says is that, like, if you look at books that men read, you know, nobody thinks that you're joining the FBI or going. [00:21:54] Speaker B: On an adventure or you're not solving. Yeah. You're not solving crimes in your spare time. [00:22:00] Speaker A: In your spare time while swinging from a building or whatever, finding dead bodies. [00:22:04] Speaker B: All over the place. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Exactly. So in my head, though, they were fairly equivalent. But I actually. And I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I do talk to more people now as an adult who are like, well, I thought he was coming to save me or whatever. And I'm like, I don't know if I thought that was true or if family affects you more, but I have put no embargo on my child's reading. But I have heard some things. I'm just like, I don't know. He reads a lot of dystopian, and, like, he was reading some book where they like harvest children. [00:22:38] Speaker B: Oh, my God. I know. [00:22:40] Speaker A: It's some series. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Can I tell you, my daughter has figured out that she loves the romance part of books, right? And she's my fifth grader, and she started like, she'll be like, mom, mom, I was reading this book, and the boy likes the girl. The girl doesn't know it, and she likes him, too. And she just gets so excited. I was like, sweetheart, that's the romance part. That's what your mama writes. And she's like, really? So she starts telling all of her friends. She's like, I like the romance part of a book. So then she has a birthday party, and her friend shows up. She's like, I got you a book. And my daughter's like, oh, I'm so excited. This is awesome. She opens the book. It is the Hunger Games. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:23:25] Speaker B: In it. [00:23:28] Speaker A: That's hilarious. My thumb, like, accurate. [00:23:31] Speaker B: And also, I was like, oh, this book is gonna wreck her. And she finished it, and it wrecked her. And she was like, can I get the other two, please? So, yeah, I hear you. On, like, we don't really, like, tell them they can or can't read anything in particular. It's just kind of like, you know, be around and available conversations. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:53] Speaker A: And that's. That's where we are now. Like, you know. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Also, they're harvesting children. What do you think about. There's so many of those books, like the dystopian ones, they all seem. There's one called, like, starters and enders, and they were borrowing children's bodies. I mean, there's, like, many. It's actually really interesting. We read them during the pandemic. I mean, I read them. Sometimes I read the same book, sometimes I don't. I can only read so many of those, but they do lead to fairly interesting conversations, which is, I think, for sure, as a parent, that's the important part. What the book is about itself, I don't know. I just want him to read more. I mean, he reads not as much as I ever did as a kid, and he's an only child, too, but I want him to read mainly because, to be honest, I just want him to read more and have familiarity with english words and stuff. Like, that's a different, like, pedagogical reason. He didn't learn to read until third grade. I nearly lost my mind. And the thing is, like. And people kept saying to me, it's okay. Like, it's okay. I read. I learned to read it, like, three. So the, like, space between three and eight is vastly. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:55] Speaker A: And so he didn't read. Didn't care. Like, just didn't care. And so now he reads. It's so funny because he reads out loud to me, like, especially when we're sitting in the car, and he's got to tell me what somebody's, you know, like, he googles things as we're driving, and he reads perfectly. And it's so interesting to me that he can read words that he heard but did not see very often. But I do want him to read because I'd want him to have greater familiarity with english words and improve his spelling. But that's here nor there. [00:25:22] Speaker B: The spelling thing, it cracks me up. I'm like, you read 38 hours a day, and you spelled the wrong. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Understand? Like, maybe they're taking in information different than me because my spelling is very good. I mean, that's one of the things I do. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker A: And so, like, we were just sitting here the other day, and he's like, how do you spell something? And I was like, oh, come on, now. But I didn't say that. But as a parent, I thought it. Okay, sorry. Now we've done it is. [00:25:50] Speaker B: And it's like, we all, like, learn at different rates. And how you spell, like, whether or not you're good at spelling does not dictate, like, where you're gonna go in life. [00:25:58] Speaker A: I know. And so all of these thoughts I'm sharing I have in my head while smiling and kissing him on the head. [00:26:05] Speaker B: But I do have. [00:26:05] Speaker A: He's 14, you know, but I do have all these thoughts, and I struggle with it as a parent, but I try to back away because my parents would have been like, oh, my God, the world's coming to an end. But we had spelling tests every week, so it's different. It's just different kind of emphasis. I'm crossing my fingers that it's all gonna be okay, especially if he spends 2 hours a week, day on a week on TikTok. [00:26:25] Speaker B: Now it will. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Okay, so let me ask you this. What? Okay, so the reason I'm gonna get distracted. Let me focus. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Focus. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:33] Speaker B: The reason I'm ready. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Wanted to talk to you is a. Okay. As I was saying to you, like, before we started recording, I remember sitting next to you this brunch or whatever. I think it was in Houston at the first ram. [00:26:43] Speaker B: I think so. [00:26:44] Speaker A: I think it's the only time. I shared a room recently with that thing at the beach. But I feel like that was a different year. I. [00:26:50] Speaker B: No, I think that was the same year. [00:26:51] Speaker A: I think it was the same year. So it was either ram. [00:26:54] Speaker B: It was who it was. I went to the first and second ram, so. But I only. I only shared a room with you. The second ram. I think that was the second ram, right? Oh, it had to be, because I had already. Yeah. Yes. It's decided, like, we met the first 1 second one. I'm sure that's the way it went. [00:27:13] Speaker A: No, that's actually true. That's actually true. But in my head, because Houston is not a place I go, like, independently, I think those are only two or three times I've been like, so in my head, it's all one block of time. You know what I mean? [00:27:24] Speaker B: That makes sense. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:26] Speaker A: Okay. Now I remember. So we went to some restaurant down the street. I remember this part. And there was a brunch, and you were like, oh, I write, like, romantic comedy as Jamie Farrell. But I'm looking to, like, like, switch and, like, start a new pen name. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:41] Speaker A: I literally was like, that's interesting. And you're like, I should have gotten a tag. The name tag. I remember you saying this. I should have gotten a name tag with the new pen name, not the old pen name. I was like, yeah, yeah, you. I think. I don't even know what was on my name tag then I may have been writing under some other name as well. May have been silly Fox. Hell knows what it was. And so, yeah. I was like, yeah, I think so too. Nobody's doing those anymore. And it was so. And I was like, this is interesting. But many people. You. I mean, you were in the romance community. Many people change names, change genres, do lots of things all the time. So you clock it and move on, because it's not my life. And, you know, I don't have a deep, like, dive into other people's things. They're gonna write all day and drink the tea and the water and the wine. But then I remember I'm trying to think what happened. It was probably when we were doing the zooms during, I don't know, Covid or whatever. It's. Yeah, I know that it's when the Pippa took off. I feel like. Well, no, I'll ask you. What year was that? Because if the first ran was probably 2018. Had you. When did you launch Pipa? [00:28:46] Speaker B: I launched Pipa in the fall of 2017. So Pipa was doing reasonably well in the fall of 2018. But then 2019 is when Pippa just absolutely exploded into the stratosphere and, like, blew all of my wildest dreams and expectations out of the water. [00:29:04] Speaker A: Okay, so let me ask you this. When. When did you start writing romance? I'm writing and publishing that. Just. [00:29:10] Speaker B: Oh. So I discovered romance novels basically, as a newlywed. When I was, like, 22, I graduated college. I decided I wanted to get back into reading. I found Janet Ivanovich. Janet Ivanovich led me to Jennifer Cruzy. Jennifer Cruzi led me to, like, Linda Howard and Julia Quinn and Lisa Clay pass. And I was hooked. Right? And so I had wanted to write books when I was a kid. Like, I was reading Beverly Cleary, and I wanted to write the next Ramona Quimby when I was, like, eight years old, so I did. I started writing a story when I was eight years old, and it was every bit as, like, good or bad as you would expect an eight year old story to be. And I remember my parents read it, and they laughed, and I was mortified. And so I set it aside. But then I graduated college with an engineering degree. I got married. We spent a year in Minneapolis while my husband finished his degree, and then he commissioned into the air force, and we ended up living in Pensacola, Florida, where I couldn't find a job. I had student loans. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Loans. [00:30:14] Speaker B: I didn't know anyone. I didn't know anything about military life. Everything was brand new. I ended up working at a Walden books in the mall, and it started selling calendars in the calendar kiosks because they had the holidays, and I was getting a discount on all the books. And so my entire paycheck went to books every single time. And about that time, I started writing a self therapy. And so after a couple years, like, reading romance novels and writing sort of merged, and I started writing romance novels. I joined romance writers of America. I made friends. I joined an online chapter because in the military, you know, you move around a lot. Yeah. And it just sort of went from there. So I am also a dinosaur. I predate the Kindle. Like, I was querying agents and editors before Amazon ever unveiled the Kindle. Oh, yeah. [00:31:07] Speaker A: So was I. I mean, I'm old, but I mean, not. Yeah, no, I want to say I am what I am. I'm old. I'm 52, so I am. [00:31:13] Speaker B: I mean, in. Like, I'm in my mid forties. Like, in. In. Yeah, in. In publishing terms, like, we. We're the dinosaurs. I know. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Somebody said it to me the other day, and she's like, you know, you're a dinosaur. I'm like, I feel like I just started. She was like, but I met you in 2006. I'm like, you have a point. [00:31:29] Speaker B: I've realized, just, like, I've been seeing a whole lot of. I've been perusing social media more than I should, and I've been seeing a lot of posts from new authors who have questions about things, and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I never even questioned that. I just knew how to do it. Like, how is it that, like, you realize at some point, like, just how much information you have amassed over the years? [00:31:50] Speaker A: Because I remember. I remember going to my first RWA thing, so I went to. It was because it was a San Francisco and I lived in LA, and so it was close. [00:31:58] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:31:58] Speaker A: I could fly and really fast. And the 2006 is not. Or was it 2004? I don't know. I had no kids. And it was like, you learn so much throughout. You do, just by going to these things. And I. You never. Not you. I never realized how much I know. I know. People call me and ask me questions off the top of my head. Yeah, but it's not. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Oh, and then, like, I was talking about, like, the Whisper network and agents, right? Like, there are certain agent names that, like, if I see them on a list and, like, you just, like, cringe because you've been around so long that you're like, oh, I know the history there. [00:32:34] Speaker A: I know. [00:32:36] Speaker B: You know. And you're like, wait, people don't know this? [00:32:40] Speaker A: Who sent you? Not that guy. No, no. [00:32:43] Speaker B: I love my agent. I just want to clarify. Like, I do have an agent. Fantastic and wonderful, and I am not at all disparaging her. She is fantastic and amazing. And also, like, frequently, it is a matter of, like, is this a good fit for me? Is this not a good fit for me? But then there are still some people that, you know that are in our arena who have behaved poorly in the past and done things that should not be done, and I'm a one shot and you're done type person. I'm like, you have lost my trust there are enough other people in this industry? Like, I'm not. No, I do not need to give you a second chance. I'm moving on. I'm also a very kind person, I swear. [00:33:17] Speaker A: No, that's fair. Like, I will say this. Like, I had a thought, like, a few years ago. I forget who I gave a second chance to, and it was mystique. And then I called everyone. Like, I had this revelation. We love to have a restoration. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Like, 45, right? [00:33:30] Speaker A: So I had this revelation where I was like, I don't think I've ever given anyone a second chance where it's worked out. So then I start calling everyone. Calling, like, Theodora. I called everyone I knew, and I was like, have you ever given anyone a second chance? And it's worked out. And they're like, no. And I was like, oh, then I don't think I ever need to give anybody a second chance ever again. Like, all it is brought for, like, and I was talking to a friend about this who hired somebody and they did something and they gave him a second chance, and it brought more heartache. You know what I mean? So, like, the first mistake or whatever. Error, whatever. And judgment was small, but then the second one cost them money, and then you're like, oh, okay. So, yeah, no, so I don't give anyone a second chance. And I know somebody sent me an email deleting old gmails because it was full and I was reading someone lead mail, and they're like, you never gave me a second chance. And I was like, so then I sit down and google them, and I was like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. [00:34:24] Speaker B: You know, I think that everybody needs a second chance, but that second chance doesn't have to come from me. You know? [00:34:28] Speaker A: Like, maybe they're gonna be putting it. I love. [00:34:31] Speaker B: They're gonna be a better fit for someone else to give them that second chance. And, like, I work with amazing people who have been on my team for a very long time, and I love them to pieces, and I trust them implicitly. And I don't think they'll ever need a second chance. Do you know what I mean? [00:34:45] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. [00:34:46] Speaker B: We're just the right fit. The way we work works well together. [00:34:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I had this conversation about somebody who was trying to hire a nanny, and then I forget what the person did they were trying to hire. She didn't show up, or she flanked out, or she had a bad reference or used a friend as a reference and lied about it, whatever. There was something, like, fishy. [00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:02] Speaker A: And they're like, should I give her a second chance? And I was like, regarding children, I mean, I'm not saying that's more important than everything in the world, but I was like, no, but it is. And she was like, but what? She was like, how did you hire nanny? I was like, I hired her based on, to be honest. And this is probably. I had such a good feeling about her. Yeah. And I do know wrong. I'm gonna see her tomorrow at her grandchildren's christening, but I know, I know it's twins, too. But anyway, so I have two little gifts, not one little gift, so. And I love her to death. Like, I mean, obviously I've known her 14 years or whatever, but I sometimes, I now, like, I read the gift of fear a few years ago, and there's a couple other books in that vein that suggests that whatever your first impression is is, like, 99%, right. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Way. Do you get more information? We tend to take in a lot of information and, like, try to disprove our original, especially if we have a bad feeling. Yeah, but our bad feeling is always right. And I'm going with that now in life. Like, yeah, it's the same as a second chance. Okay, so. [00:36:06] Speaker B: But what made you. [00:36:09] Speaker A: I get so distracted. But what made you. How many books had you written as Jamie before you decided to branch out? [00:36:19] Speaker B: That's a really good question. Hold on, let me think a minute. I had. I think I had five books out in my misfit bride series, two books out in the officers ex wives club series, and I had done a Kindle worlds book. Was that eight? I think I had eight books as Jamie that I had written in. I launched my first Jamie Farrell book in August of 2023. And. [00:36:47] Speaker A: Wait, no, 2023, 2013. Was that last year? [00:36:56] Speaker B: Okay, that was last year. I don't know what year it is. I can't tell the story anymore. Like, we passed a decade. Everything has started over from scratch. I know, right? So 2013. So eleven years ago, I launched. This is 20:24 a.m. i doing my math, right? [00:37:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:13] Speaker B: Really embarrassing for a former engineer, although I say I'm recovering. So eleven years ago, I launched that, and I had super young children at home. My husband worked really long hours. We moved from Florida to Alabama. We spent ten months in Alabama, and then we moved to Washington, DC. So I published my first book right after we moved to Alabama. My youngest was like, six months old. Right? Like, super young kids. Like, only one was school age. So we were, like, finding preschools. So I could have, like, three to 4 hours a day, two to three times a week to write. Yeah. It was just really, really hard. Like, when I see people starting now and they have young children, I just want to hug them and I want to be like, this is hard. I know this is hard. You are going to get through this, and everything's going to be okay. No matter how hard you feel like, this is today. Like, be kind to yourself. Don't lose hope. Like, this is not the end all, be all. Because that's how I felt. It was like, I knew that I was writing good books. Like, I got a starred publisher's weekly review on one of them, right? So, like, that's an objective measure. I was writing good enough books, and they just weren't selling well. And in the summer of 2017, we. My husband finished up his assignment in the DC area. We moved to Dayton, Ohio, and I quit. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Oh, that was my one friend who has an air force husband. And that was his last assignment. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that was ours, too. Was. Dayton was our last assignment before he retired, and we moved to our forever home. So we moved, and I basically. I quit writing. I was like, I quit. I give up. I am spending 50 to 60 hours of a week away from my family to break even. And, like, the money is not all of it, but when you're looking at, like, the sacrifice that it takes to be in this arena and to work hard as a self published author, as an indie author, like, that's a lot of time away from your family. And I was like, I really need to look at what my priorities are because I'm not going to spend my kids entire childhood working 50 to 60 hours a week for no financial benefit. Like, I need to feel like I'm contributing to the family if this is how much I'm spending on this. Right? And I was burnt out. I was tired. The DC life was amazing in a lot of ways, and it was absolutely exhausting in other ways. So I would leave my house to take. I would walk one kid to the bus stop, I would take another kid ten minutes away to a preschool, and then the third kid needed to go to a different preschool because of age requirements and the kind of daycare that we could provide that we could afford at the time because we were a single income family and, like, the military did. Like, they have a housing allowance. They adjust based on where you're living. But, like, it's still three kids. It's tight. You know, it would take me an hour and a half to 2 hours to get my kids everywhere just so I could sit down at Starbucks and write for 3 hours. And that was for, like, a couple years in the DC area. And I was just tired. So when we moved to Ohio, like, we bought our first. Our first. No, we bought a house. Not our first house, but we bought a house. And I was like, I'm just going to paint the walls. I'm going to not even worry about writing because I'm tired. But then I got the bug. I got the itch. I was like, I want to do it. And I started researching the charts and I started sampling what was there. And I don't know if you remember much about, like, the summer of 2017 and Kindle Unlimited, but people had figured out that if you put ten books in a single book package, the book stuffing, you could make a lot of money, right? And it. I like to say there's a book for every reader and a reader for every book. I was definitely not the reader for the books that were sitting at the top of the charts. And it made me mad. It made me so mad because I was like, I write books that are good. Like publishers Weekly has said, so. My reviews say so. I've, like, been nominated for awards, and, like, it sounds so arrogant when I see it. [00:41:13] Speaker A: No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, how do you. [00:41:17] Speaker B: How do you judge if your book is good enough, you know? And, like, there are people who are gonna be like, why did your books get nominated for awards? Your books suck, right? Because, like, we all see them differently, and that's fine. But, like, I knew I was competitive in the market. I guess that's a better way to say it. Like, I knew that I was. I should be competitive in the market, and I just got so mad, and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And election is, like, my number nine, so I. That one. And I'm like, number one, responsibility. Number six, achiever. Number five, restorative, which is like, problem solving strength. Right? Like, geeking out on strengths. For a minute here, I was basically built to take on the challenge of, well, fine, if that's what they want, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it better. And this is something like, if you. If you take Becca sims classes, she's like, don't. Don't do this. Yeah, fine, I'm gonna do it better. Exactly what I did. But I didn't say I'm gonna do it better. I was like, I'm gonna do it my way. And I switched from writing in third person past to first person present. And it's like, I found my voice, and I wrote that first book like no one was gonna read it, so there was no fear. There was no fear at all that someone in my family would disapprove, that someone would laugh at me, that I would, like, have a massive plot hole and, like. And whatever. Like, any bad thing that could ever happen, it wasn't going to happen, because I was writing for me. I was not writing for publication. But then I sent it to my editor, and she was like, so you're going to publish this? And I was like, oh, oh. So my husband just, like, took a command position, and his office knows my pen name, and this book has a really steamy elevator hate sex scene. Mmm. No, I'm not going to publish this. And she's like, you are a take pen name. And she was right. Like, I was like, fine, I'm going to do it. I settled on a pen name. I hired someone to help me get my covers in order because I knew that wasn't my strong suit. Right. Let me back up just a second. When my husband took command in the military, one of the things he had to do was go to commander training, and they had the spouses go along so that we could go. Basically, I joked that it was officers wives training, and it essentially was. I got yelled at. Officer spouse's training. And he's right. Officer spouse is training. And we had our own track during commander school where we learned a lot of, like, what our spouses would be going through as commanders. Some situations they might face, like how to interact with higher level spouses or whatever. There's just a lot. But as part of it, we had a general come speak to us every morning. And one morning, he told us a story about a young captain who was just always super positive attitude, and he liked her a lot. And he, at one point, he said, he's like, how do you do it? How do you come in and face every day with just this happy, positive, fearless attitude? And she was like, well, sir, I am just fearlessly me. And I was like, oh, oh, that's great. You should be fearlessly you. And then I was like, to me me, I should be fearlessly me. And, like, my eyes got round, and my husband's sitting next to me and he goes, oh, shoot. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Something's a brewing. [00:44:37] Speaker B: That was not good. She did not hear that. Like, we were walking around later that day, and he, like, nudges me, and he's like, hey, your name tags on upside down. And I just looked at him and I went, I am being fearlessly mean. Thank you very much. Another morning at command school, commander school. Command school. I don't remember what it was called anyway, but another morning I do remember, he said, one of your jobs as a commander is going to be realizing you can't do it all. And one of your jobs as a spouse is realizing you cannot do it all. Like, if you are not a person who likes to host teaspoon, find someone else to do it. Right. If you are not a person who likes running the meal trains for baby showers and sick spouses and whatever, he's like, find someone else to do it. You do not have to do it all. This is where, like, do what only you can do. And that was, like, the second half of that. Like, these are the two big things that I took away that basically changed our lives. Be fearlessly you and do only what you can do. Which circles us back to. I hired someone to help me figure out what my covers should be, what my branding should be. I decided to launch with a newsletter that was sent once a week, and people were like, oh, my God, you can't do that. That's way too much. You can't be in people's inboxes every week. They'll unsubscribe. And I was like, shutterfly emails me every single day. [00:46:02] Speaker A: I think for me, it's Nordstrom. I figured twice a day. I'm like, do we need to? But I don't unsubscribe. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Yes. I'm like, if there are companies that are emailing you one or two or three or four times every single day, I think that I can remind people that my name exists once a week in their inbox. And it's so funny because now the number of people who do weekly emails and this is, like, successful. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Skyrocketed. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's massive. It's massive. And I went into the Pippa grant name with, like, a very clear plan, using all of the lessons that I had learned the hard way with my Jamie Farrell brand. I was like, I'm going to correct them all and I'm going to be fearlessly me, and we're going to do this. And so I published Mister McCadi and I put it in Kindle Unlimited because frankly, I was tired. Like, part of me went into Kindle Unlimited because that's where all those books that were sitting at the top of the charts were. But the other part was managing five or six different platforms is exhausting. [00:47:03] Speaker A: I do it all the time. It is. I don't disagree. Like I said, I don't disagree because I want to update the back cover copy of a book that's on pre order. And I was like, okay. So I do the thing that theodore always said, which is like, find something mindless to watch, like on streaming and do it then. And that's what I did. I was like, yeah, okay. You know? Okay. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Yep. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:22] Speaker B: But it is. It's a lot of work. And I was tired. I was burnt out. I was tired. So I was like, forget this. I'm not going to do it. I'm just going to be on Kindle Unlimited because it's easy, it's simple. And that's where the people who are at the top of the charts are sitting. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:33] Speaker B: And seven months later, I hit the top 100 with my 6th book. [00:47:40] Speaker A: Okay. [00:47:41] Speaker B: I went from releasing eight books as Jamie Farrell in four years to releasing 19 books in 26 months as Peppa Grant. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Oh, my God. I don't even know how you do. [00:47:52] Speaker B: It was a lot. [00:47:54] Speaker A: So can I ask you, because I don't know. I did not. Okay, people. Your trajectory is so different than 90% of the people I know. So. People. [00:48:02] Speaker B: Yeah. This is not normal. [00:48:08] Speaker A: There are a lot of people. And whether this is timing or the book, I'm not gonna. That's a whole conversation. But there were a number of 2012 people. I was still the publisher in 2012, wherever we are. And I have. I don't have regrets. I just. I see what happened. But there are a lot of 2012 people who got big from the beginning and so don't have that. [00:48:35] Speaker B: You don't have the struggle experience. Correct. [00:48:38] Speaker A: You made it. Unless some people need to struggle in life. I've never. I'm not on a struggle bus like you should be on struggle. But I will say that I do find it interesting that you were very deliberate in your relaunch. So let me ask you this. What would you say the Jamie Farrell brand is? [00:48:58] Speaker B: The Jamie Farrell brand is like Pippa Grant light. [00:49:02] Speaker A: So written comedy or less sex? [00:49:06] Speaker B: It's less sex. It's a little lighter on the comedy. They're still really funny. But those books were written to try to please an editor or an agent with trad publishers. Because my mindset was, it is good enough if it's good enough for Tradpub. The reason I published my first Jamie Farrell book was because I started getting rejections from agents and editors that said, this book is fabulous. I love it. I wish I could take it on. However, we don't want anything that's not the next 50 shades of Gray. And this is too quirky and funny and light. So, all of those books were written even though I was self publishing them, they were written with an eye toward. I want this to feel like a traditionally published book. And third person past tense is what traditional publishers are publishing. I should pull back a little bit here because, like, traditional publishing doesn't go quite as far as where I would want to go, you know? And. And I was writing to please someone else when I was writing the Jamie Farrell books, and I enjoyed them. Don't get me wrong. Like, I enjoyed them. I was proud of them, but they were not. They were like, an 85% to 90% authentic experience, whereas, like, with Pippa Grant, I just unplugged everything, and I let all of, like, what is it that kids say? I let my freak flag fly. Like, I just let all the quirkiness come out. I didn't hold back. I probably hold back more now than I did when I first launched, but I built a readership, and I've come a little bit back to center in some ways. So it's like a meld now of my favorite parts of the Jamie Farrell books with my favorite parts of the pippigrant books. So it's different, but in a good way. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Okay. So were you. I don't. Okay. And I don't mean this way. It's gonna maybe sound, given the. Okay. You were deliberate about changing names and launching and branding and covers. I remember the conversation, like, in 20, whatever year it was. But I guess the question is, were you surprised, or were you. Were you surprised about the success? [00:51:28] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I was shocked. [00:51:30] Speaker A: So even though you deliberately went in trying to be. I don't say trying to be more successful. Trying to be more coachable. That's the word I want. [00:51:38] Speaker B: So I. Let me think of how to say this. My goal with my writing. So I graduated college in the early two thousands with a degree in computer engineering, and at that time, you get a job, and you're going to get an offer for $50,000 a year. I was like, I want my books to replicate the income that I would have made as an entry level engineer. I was like, that is my definition of success. [00:52:07] Speaker A: Right? [00:52:10] Speaker B: I have blown that so far out of the water, and it. It's astonishing. Like, I always think there are limits on things. There are practically no limits to how many readers you can find these days. I mean, like, clearly, we're limited by the fact that there are 8 billion people on the planet or whatever. Right. [00:52:32] Speaker A: But, like, not all of them speak English, translations notwithstanding, and all that. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And, like, as far as, like, big fish go, I'm a little fish in the big fish pond. I'm a big fish in the overall. In the publishing pond and publishing market right now. And I hope that doesn't sound arrogant. It's just like. [00:52:52] Speaker A: But it's true. Because I'll tell you, because I have another question that I'm going to ask, and I can ask it now, because one of the things that. So when I was talking to my hungarian tutor, he was like, what are you doing today? I'm like, oh, I'm going to interview this author. And I said the thing that's not the most interesting thing. I don't have a good vocabulary. [00:53:12] Speaker B: Everything is the biggest. It's okay. [00:53:13] Speaker A: I get it. [00:53:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [00:53:14] Speaker A: So he said, oh. I said, well, the most interesting thing about her is that she debuts at number one. And I find that fascinating because I don't. Not every book does it. No, but a lot do. [00:53:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Four that have hit number one. Yeah. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Every so often I, like, log in and I was like, oh, Pippa's at number one today. You know what I mean? [00:53:38] Speaker B: I just look and see if it happens. I'm not even gonna lie. It feels good. Like, I shouldn't say this, but it's so true. So I am a high achiever, right? And one of the things about being an achiever is that you're always looking for the next accomplishment, right? Like, you're like, I have leveled up. What is the next mountain? Like, if you've watched. If you've watched Taylor Swift's documentary Miss Americana, I felt a lot of what she said in my soul, because she talked about how, like, she was so young when she won her Grammys, and then she was like, well, what's next? [00:54:10] Speaker A: Right? [00:54:11] Speaker B: And it's so weird because now, like, we've seen what Taylor Swift did in the last year, and we're like, oh, that's what. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Okay, exactly. [00:54:20] Speaker B: But there's this, like, the first time I hit number one, it sort of broke my brain a little because, like, my entire career, I've been like, okay, I hit number five. Can I hit number four? Oh, I hit number four. Can I hit number three? You know? And then all of a sudden, I was like, I hit number one. Can I. Oh, God, where do we go next? Like, what's my next big goal? And, like, it's so weird because I'm so grateful for the success. I'm so grateful for the readers who show up, like, I don't want to sound ungrateful for any of this, but it's also, like a bit of a mind trip to be like, oh, well, what is my next big goal? [00:54:54] Speaker A: You know, because I know there's another author who now will not name. I'm gonna go into the discussion. But she hit number one with several books in Ku. And for her, the next thing to do was to go wide to see if she could hit, well, wide. And to be honest, like, now I think she had a book. I don't know if I checked, you know, I checked to see where she was. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Because, you know, I got things to do. But is that, like, is that at all, like, something you'd want to do? I'm not saying there's something to be like, I'm not gonna ku versus y debate. I've always been wide. I mean, that's a different, you know, thought. But, yeah, that, like, then that is a good question. Then what's next? Because you can sell. I mean, you can be one and sell a million or be one and sell a billion. Like, that's not. [00:55:37] Speaker B: There's 100% accurate. Right. [00:55:40] Speaker A: There's no wiggle room there. [00:55:42] Speaker B: Like, you know, it's like authors are not. We're not each other's competition. No, but chart space. There is competition for chart space. [00:55:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:50] Speaker B: And if you launch the same day as somebody who's more popular than you, it doesn't matter if you've hit number one before. If they have more readers than you, they're gonna hit number one. Yes, I know. [00:56:00] Speaker A: A billion in there. Number one. And it's not that you're not selling a million, but then, you know. Yes. And so that's why you don't launch. [00:56:06] Speaker B: On Tuesday in September like Freedom McFadden. Number one is gonna sell crap ton more books than Pippa grand at number one. I can just tell you that right now. But, like. So I'm going to answer your question. I think I'm going to answer your question. I'm going to do it in an interesting way, and then I'm going to get done. You're going to be like, no pivot. That didn't answer my question at all. But we're going to go there. I have a friend who talks about financial matters for authors. And about ten years ago, I was at a workshop that she did. So this is like prime Jamie Farrell days before pippagrand existed. And in the middle of the workshop, she had us do this exercise where she's like, write down your, like, five high in the sky, never gonna happen goals, right? And I was like, okay, win a Rita. Because it's when RWA's, like, big prize with the Rita, it's like, I want to hit the New York Times list. I want to write 50 books. I want to, like, I don't even remember, right? So we get done with this list of five. And she goes, now make a list of five even bigger goals. I was like, oh, crap. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:57:14] Speaker B: I just, like, put all my pie in the sky goals. And so it really made me think. And, like, you know, you sit there for a few minutes, you write, like, even bigger goals. And I was like, write 100 books. Launch at number one at the New York Times with every single book, and, like, make $7 million. And, you know, like, all the big things, right? And she's like, we finish. And she's like, great, do it again. And I was like, uh uh. Like, the next thing you know, I'm writing, like, make enough money with my writing that I can rent out Disney world for a day and take my whole entire family there, you know, like, buy a private island and just, like, crazy insane stuff, right? I went back and I looked at my list. I found it about three years ago, and I pinged her, and I was like, do you remember that? And she was like, of course I remember that. And I said, I've met, like, half of my goals on this list. And they're, like, not the goals that I've listed right now. Clearly, I've never rented out, like, disney world, but I went through, and I had actually marked off some from each of the three columns, and I was shocked. And I was like, oh, well, this just tells me, like, so when I hit number one, and I was like, what's next? I was like, I'm going to go back to that exercise, and I'm gonna be like, if there is no limit, like, what do I want to do? [00:58:35] Speaker A: Wow. [00:58:36] Speaker B: What are my goals? And, like, professional and non professional, too, and how are they going to impact? Like, how am I going to steer my professional life so that I can reach them? I'm a big believer in manifestation. I'm a big believer in manifestation. And so, like, you can't just sit there and wish for it, though. Like, I'm also a believer in hard work. So, yeah, I, like, I think that the reason Pippa grant became so successful was just, it was partially timing. Like, there's anybody who tells you there's not an element of luck to success does not understand there's an element of luck to success, you know, very much so. [00:59:16] Speaker A: Like, you couldn't have done this necessarily 20 what year? Oh, God, I hate to say myself. 20 years ago. [00:59:23] Speaker B: No, my first. [00:59:25] Speaker A: No, you couldn't have. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Exactly. And, like, my first book that hit number one, Amazon cleared out all of those people who were book stuffing a month before that book launched. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:59:36] Speaker B: And my book before that, when all of the book stuffers were there, hit, like, 124 in the store. So there's a very high possibility that my book would have hit the top 100, but I don't know that it would have hit as high, and I don't know if it would have stayed as long. So, like, I couldn't control the fact that Amazon suddenly removed chart competition and made it, and they opened up the charts for the people who had been stifled because of the bookstuffing situation. You know, like, I wasn't in control of that at all. I was right place, right time with the right books for the market. And I had put a lot of time and time and experience, time and effort into building my craft, too. And that's, like, part of the reason that I was able to write so many books so fast. That coupled with the fact that, like, my daughter went to preschool, so that opened up, like, legitimate working hours for me so that I could actually spend time really writing. And I had the right amount of help, and it just. Everything coalesced at the same time and just made it work in a way that was super magic and that, I, believe me, I do not take it for granted. [01:00:41] Speaker A: So I'll ask you this, because I don't have this experience, actually, at all. I kind of think in any aspect of my life. Do you ever. I don't want to say worry. I don't want to introduce, like, anxiety into your life, but, no, it's okay. [01:00:51] Speaker B: I have anxiety already. [01:00:54] Speaker A: Do you feel a pressure? This is something people talk about. Like, this is. Okay. Let me say this. When I was a kid in school, if you started out a class getting, like, a's on the test, there was this pressure to maintain that. And if you got to be like, you stayed up late reading a book instead of perhaps studying, not that this ever happened to me, you would get a b, and they'd be like, but you're an A student. Why aren't you doing this? [01:01:16] Speaker B: And I'd be like, well, I was. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Up last night reading, like, a Barbara Delinsky romance. I would never say that out, but that was the God's honest truth. And so it felt there was a. There was some pressure, or I felt pressure. Not everybody felt this, maybe to maintain a certain level of momentum, and, oh, yeah, with each successive thing you did, it felt more pressure. Do you have any of that? [01:01:42] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. My last book came out in April. It's my favorite book I've ever written, and it peaked at number ten at the store and rapidly fell out, and we couldn't spend enough money to keep it there in ads. And so, yeah, like, I'm feeling it right now, and it is. It's my favorite book I've ever written. There was just a perfect storm of other elements around it that made it not work. Right now. I know what some of them are. There are others that I'm unsure. Like, was that a factor? I don't know if that was a factor. No one can take from me the fact that I love this book with my whole heart and soul, and it is the favorite thing I've ever written in my life, and I've finished three books since then, and I still am like, oh, I want to go back and visit with Fletcher and Goldie, but it. It does. Like, it makes for me. It makes me double down on, like, okay, well, we're gonna figure out what we did wrong, and we're gonna adjust force, and we're gonna get back on track, and I'm gonna do some things right, and I'm gonna do some things wrong, and, like, the market is shifting in ways that you can't control. Right, right. But, like. [01:02:53] Speaker A: But one of the things, and this is the thing I think about art all the time, because, like, let me say this, because I was talking about this. So we're talking about people we know who live, like, producing, like, direct movies or, like, our showrunners, tv shows, whatever. And he was. We're talking about one participant. Now, I can't say in particular. He was like, well, why was that person's one show successful and one the next one not? And I'm like, yeah, a. They're different shows. So just so even though that showrunner is the same person in the network, I don't know if the network's good or think about that. And in theory, like, the conditions around it were the same. What is different is the art. So, yeah, stories are not exact equivalents. I mean, I know we're, like, recreating a reading experience, and they have a certain expectation, so it's not like you're gonna throw, like, a cozy mystery at them and go, hey, it's the same thing. But where do you factor in the difference in the art. Because every story. [01:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:47] Speaker A: I mean, I'm not gonna get into whether romance is formulaic. And there are certain obvious elements. It has to have a happy ending. Sure. But every story is different. So how much do you factor that into a different performance separate from Amazon? Change a thing. It wasn't working on Tuesday. You know, all those things. [01:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, how much of it is my fault directly? Which is, like, not an offensive question to me at all, because I'm like, oh, well, if I made a mistake, like, I'm happy to, like, figure out where I shifted gears and where I need to get back to. Like, my best performing books have super tropey titles. This book was called until it was lovely, which is not a super tropey title. [01:04:23] Speaker A: It is not. What's going on? [01:04:25] Speaker B: No, I just. I loved it as a title for a fake dating book. And really, it's a spite date book, and I did not. [01:04:34] Speaker A: And you didn't. [01:04:35] Speaker B: I shouldn't say this. Somebody's gonna. It should have been called the spite date. [01:04:38] Speaker A: No. So I forget. Maybe this was at a ram thing. It was. I think this was the first ram. And they were discussing titles. They were like, if the title's not on the nose, the title is wrong. And it was the first I'm reading. I just read, like, a couple weeks ago. This is marketing my Seth coden. And so, like, I'm thinking more about that. But I did change titles because I love, like, a title that alludes to what the book is about. Like, as a reader, I love this. So if it's like, until then, I was like, well, what is this going to be about? But that's me as a reader. And as my son likes to say, you are not your readers, which is fair. So, like, the title, like, the book I'm working on now is called his last mistress. And it's really his last mistress. You know what I mean? Like this. Literally, that's a good title. But you're good at separating the art from the market, because that's the thing that you. [01:05:33] Speaker B: My books are not my babies. I love them, but I'm like, oh, well, if this is a problem, it's going to change. Like, my favorite title I ever had. I changed it after the book had been out for a couple years because people didn't get it and it didn't tell you. I mean, the book's title was Master Baker. [01:05:53] Speaker A: I remember that. [01:05:56] Speaker B: And people didn't get the pun right. I had people message me, and they were like, oh, my God. I randomly happened to think about your book today. And so I started talking to, like, so and so about it, and then I said the title out loud, and I finally got the punishment in the title, like, six months later. Right. And I was like, this one didn't land. Like, the other one that I changed last year. It was called hot air. [01:06:15] Speaker A: I don't think I saw that. [01:06:18] Speaker B: And it, like, it had. There was a thing in a hot air balloon, and he was, like, the heir to a kingdom. And so it was, like, a total play on names. They are now. Yeah, once I explain it. If you have to explain it, you've already lost them. That is the wrong title. Move on. Yeah, but, like, trophy titles. Trophy titles work for me. Really funny. Opening scenes make for my best selling. [01:06:43] Speaker A: Books, but then all makes sense. [01:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So, and, like, people, I've seen a lot of discussion lately about, like, readers are starting to say, I hate tropes. I hate tropes. Quit telling me what the trope is. Quit. Quit putting tropes in your title. And I'm like, until they stop selling. [01:07:00] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:07:01] Speaker B: We will keep doing these things. [01:07:02] Speaker A: I have so many, I'm sure that you may remember, we were on a zoom, like, looks like during the COVID and one person was discussing how I said, it's kindly. They sort of ignore reader input on things like that, because what readers say they want and what people buy, what they show up for are two different things. And I. Absolutely many of us. Not necessarily. You put stock into what people said they wanted, and then they buy something different, and you're like, well, why are you buying this book when you said you wanted that book? And they're never going to answer that question. [01:07:36] Speaker B: Like, for you, I call it the kindergarten teacher and the single dad. Like, there's no conflict. And I think that's more acceptable in today's market than it was when I would quote that four or five years ago as, like, my quintessential, like, readers say they want the single dad and the kindergarten teacher, but, like, when it. When it comes down to it, is that the book they're gonna buy, right? Like, there has to be some really juicy conflict, because it's like, that's why I love normal gossip. Like, a lot of storytelling is just gossip about people you don't know, about. [01:08:06] Speaker A: People you don't know. I'm gonna ask you this. So I guess. Okay, so I have a couple more questions, but I won't keep you longer than an hour for this. The question I ask everybody is, what is. Okay. Looking back at the books you've written, your whole collective oeuvre, as it were, what is it that you. What message? I don't. I don't want to make it sound like it's like an after school special, but. But what sort of message or what theme do you think weaves throughout? [01:08:37] Speaker B: I. So when people leave a pippigrant novel after they flip that last page, I want them to feel like they are okay in their own skin, because there are characters, people out there who have the same struggles that they do, who have seen things and been through the same things and come out on the other side in love. And, like, I just want people to have hope. And the other thing I want is for them to leave with a smile on their face. Like, I have escaped the world for a little bit and spent some time just having joy and happiness and laughter. Happiness is super important to me. And I don't know why. It's probably for a discussion with my therapist, but it's also, like, I don't think that's a bad thing. No. And I just. The world can be a dumpster fire, and I want my books to be a safe place for people to be happy and escape to. So I don't know that I necessarily have a message so much as I have a vibe. And just I want them to leave my books happier than when they came into them. That's my goal. [01:09:54] Speaker A: Okay. And then what do you envision for your future? I'm not asking if you're five, five year plan, but you're young enough that you can write for, like, another long, many years. But the market obviously will change. I don't anticipate 20 or 30 years. The market will be the same as it is now. Who knows? I mean, things change so rapidly. It's so. [01:10:15] Speaker B: I don't think it'll be the same in two years is what it is now. So I will always, always continue to try to level up my craft and always look for ways to adjust my marketing to fit the market. No, it. Like, the only person who cares about your career, like, no one else will love your career and care about your career as much as you do. [01:10:33] Speaker A: Yes. Which is. [01:10:34] Speaker B: And that's a hard. No matter how you're published. [01:10:37] Speaker A: Yes. And it's. But it's true. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Even, like, super high. Like, I would imagine. Even, like, even Nora Roberts. I can't believe that her publisher cares more than she does, you know? [01:10:46] Speaker A: Right. And she cares. [01:10:50] Speaker B: They care a lot. [01:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:52] Speaker B: But can they really care as much as she does? [01:10:54] Speaker A: So. No. And then they come and go, and, like, I was just talking to somebody, like, yeah. When I was with so and so imprint, but now I'm with so and so imprint. Or, like, I've been at all five publishers and. You know what I mean? And, like, day before yesterday, and you're like, okay, this is like a head spin, but it. Nobody does care more than you. It's the thing we're talking about, like, with hiring assistants, like, earlier. And it's just that's. I think it's a hard lesson, because you really do want people to care as much as you do. But they're, you know, if they're doing marketing, like, they're gonna go home and do their life, and they're, like, they're not gonna necessarily be thinking about, what other way can I position her book? And that's. [01:11:29] Speaker B: And this is our life, right? Like, there is never not. There's never a moment of the day where I don't feel like I am a writer. [01:11:39] Speaker A: Yes. [01:11:40] Speaker B: Or I don't feel like I'm a business person running, like, my own publishing house, you know? [01:11:48] Speaker A: Yes. I think about it only because I think about when driving and I think about in the shower, like, times when I not writing. Then I have all these other thoughts, and I think. And I don't know. Well, I mean, I've had other jobs, and I left the job, and I was like, bye. And as lawyers, you talk about it because your clients are like. Like, can I call you in the middle of the night? And you're like, no, I'm gonna go home and eat dinner with my kids and do these things. And it's not that we don't care about the lawsuit against you. We just. [01:12:14] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:14] Speaker A: That's not our life. And so, obviously, you're thinking about 24 hours a day, and we are not. And it's not bad or good. It just is. Yeah. I don't know. [01:12:25] Speaker B: Accurate. [01:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So I want to say this, Pippa. It's. I'm so glad to get to talk to you because I think about you. Well, apparently, every time gossip comes out. But I think about you. [01:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So visiting, like, this is amazing and fun. Yeah. [01:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm really, really grateful to talk to you. It was good to see your face, which nobody else will see, but it's good to see your face, and it's all sunny, and your environment looks great, and I love it. But I want to thank you so, so much for taking the time for the podcast and having my listeners, who I'm sure will love you as much as I. Oh, I hope so. [01:13:03] Speaker B: Well, I am thrilled to be here. This has been so much fun, and I'm so glad you reached out because it is. It's an honor to be here, and I'm excited. [01:13:11] Speaker A: I know, and I'm excited too. So thank you so much, Pippa. [01:13:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:13:20] Speaker A: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author, Amy Austin. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole Long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the class long series are now live. You can download, outcry, witness major crimes without consent, and the murders began to your e reader. Right now I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library, and also an audiobook. My next book, his last mistress, is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook at legalthrillerauthor. You can find me on TikTok at socialthrillerauthor. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at a time to thrill. Thanks for listening and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.