Episode 47: A Time to Thrill – Conversation with Aime Austin – featuring Marlene Rhein

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, and welcome to a time to thrill. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. It is June, which means gloom for Los Angeles, but I'll only be here a couple weeks more, and then I'll be in Budapest. Uh, can't wait. We'll see. Um, it's gonna be an interesting summer over there, but my apartment I had installed for the first time in twelve years, air conditioning and a washer. And a dryer. I had a washer, I just didn't have a dryer. So I'm at odds about how I feel about going fully american in Europe. The previous owner had a dryer and she took it, and I had to plug the hole because it left a lot of cold air in. But I finally got a dryer, and I also got air conditioning because the first few summers I was there, it was lovely as it was here in Los Angeles. And then the last couple, they've had quite a few 100 degree days. And the buildings stay cool because they're brick and they, like, admit all this cool air until they get hot. And then it's like being in an oven. And I'm only on the second floor, so it's not so bad. I don't know. There's like, there's four floors in my building. I. I never go upstairs in the summer, so I don't know if it's super hot up there. But, um, I've certainly just gone full american. Moving on. So I. This month I am interviewing filmmaker Marlene Rhyne. Interestingly, she contacted me a few weeks ago, and I really wanted to talk to her because I had just been thinking about the role of women filmmakers in Los Angeles. So let me say this. If you ever, if you follow me at all on Instagram. A few weeks ago, I went to a book talk with Liz Lenz, whose book the american ex wife came out maybe a month or two ago. And Eve Rodsky, who has a book called Fair Play, that came out a few weeks ago. So fair play is a book about the division of labor among men and women. And Liz Len's book is about. Well, I think her subtitle, I'm not gonna get this right, I have the book, I just don't have it in front of me, is about how she got divorced and then started her life and the success her book had. Like, new York Times. Like, a lot of the success she's had as a writer came subsequent to her divorce. And she talks a lot. If you follow her substack, which I'll link in the notes about her husband's lack of support, her ex husband's, excuse me, lack of support of her career. And, okay, all of this aside, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot. So one of the things that Eve Rodsky talks about in her book and in some articles where she's been quoted is that when you ask women about their jobs, they always say their jobs are flexible. So even when you talk to doctors and lawyers whose jobs may have less flexibility than some women doctors and women lawyers claim their jobs are flexible, whereas male doctors and male lawyers will claim that their jobs are completely inflexible. And I've witnessed this firsthand. So I belong to a number of attorney forums for women on Facebook or whatever. And their number one issue is always, how can I fit this job? How can I have a career or have an income, depending on what their goal is, and also manage these two, three kids that they have. And these women spend a lot of time sort of rather themselves into a pretzel trying to figure out how to best have work life balance, have a career that's successful or that's moving forward, have a career that's flexible enough that they can also pick up their children, drop them off from school, stay home if they're sick, go to soccer games, school plays. All of the stuff I know because I do all of the stuff. And it's interesting because the men I know, the heterosexual men I know in marriage, spend zero time worrying about the not worrying, speaking out loud about this kind of flexibility. They either have it or they don't. And they don't seem to spend any time thinking about it. All of this said, what I've been thinking a lot about is I know a number of filmmakers in LA, directors, producers. I also know screenwriters, but they are more of the whole Hollywood system. So most of these people are very separate. So they're either producing movies, directing movies, or writing screenplays. They're not usually doing all three in the whole writer, director, filmmaker thing that has emerged. So that said, the men are out there producing films. They're on the screen. You can go to the movies and see them. And a lot of their wives, they met when they moved here, where they were both pursuing filmmaking. And 95, I can think of like 295 percent of the women have really cut back on that and they don't pursue it. And I was talking to another friend last week in some comedy club, and for some reason, this has been, like, driving me crazy. This is not my life. I'm not a filmmaker. You know, I'm not. But I couldn't figure out, like, what at the core of it was driving me crazy. I do believe that women can make whatever choices they want. I'm not one of those people who thinks women should work or shouldn't work or whatever. People do what they want to do, and as long as they're not bothering me, I don't really care. But I think the thing that has bothered me is that I've seen some of these women's earlier movies, like, you know, from, let's say, 1520 years ago, and they have some really unique perspectives and unique voices. And I think that's the thing that upsets me. I feel that those are missing. So, I mean, you know, I'm sure many of you have been to the movies. There are a lot of men who are directing a lot of movies, and they're not particularly diverse in thought or experience in many, many cases. And what I am looking for, okay, also, la, they have knocked down, I swear to God, every single house. And now somebody's sawing and it's really loud and I can't do anything about it unless I record this before 07:00 a.m. or after 07:00 p.m. oh, my God. So what I was. Okay, maybe I'll pause. So what I was saying is that I think that what I really would like more of are those stories that these women want to tell, whether it's about motherhood or being a woman or their relationships with whomever. There's a lot of things that we talk about and they're writing about that I wish I could see on screen, and I rarely do, because as one mom said to me recently, who, well, okay, a, there was a writer's trick, so that's a whole different thing. But she was saying, now that she's getting back from the writer strike, she wants to get back into, like, writing these particular, like, films that she has ideas about. But the thing that's in her way is, like, driving her kids to and from soccer practice or whatever it is. And that especially in LA traffic, as I've done, like in the last, like, few months, you can burn two, 3 hours in a day going 10 miles, basically like a mile an hour, I swear to God. And it's really curtailed those stories that I think would enrich, enrich any genre, whether it's movies or television. And I just want more of those stories. And I don't know how we can create a world where there are more. And the main reason I wanted to go to this Liz Lens Evratsky talk was because Evratsky has a framework for a much fairer division of labor, and she was able to work this out with her husband, who's a CEO, and he managed to have time to take out the garbage. So clearly other people could have time to take out the garbage, but I don't. I like my ex, so I went through, like, the cards, and she talks about the division of labor. And so she has, like, this card set that also she gave away during this talk. And there's like a hundred cards, and she was like, you, each person should get 50. And so I, like, just open the box and flip through the 100 cards. And I thought, well, I did 99. My ex did one, and the one thing he did was pick up dry cleaning because I didn't, I wasn't working, like, at that kind of job, and I didn't need dry cleaning. And the last thing I wanted to do was be in, like, the dry cleaning pickup drop off business and determining which of his clothes needed to be cleaned. Like, I just put my foot down about that. There's one thing the other 99 I did. And it's, I mean, I see what happened. I mean, I saw it happening to me, but there's this big push of, well, you know, he's making more money or men's jobs are more important, and you should move with him and do these things for him and he'll support you. I'm not saying my ex didn't support me monetarily, certainly not emotionally, but I think that's a huge trade off. And I'm not saying that women raising the next generation of children or caring for the elderly or whatever, sick dogs is not important, but that can't be our only purpose in life. And I think that art created by women is very important. It's one of the reasons that I do this podcast, because I really want to amplify the voices of women who are brilliant creators. But there are many of them out here, at least in LA and both in New York, and you're not hearing them. And I want nothing more than that. Okay, so let me get off the soapbox. This is my current soapbox. Next month, who knows what it'll be. So in this, like, storm of thoughts in my mind, I got an email from Marlene and she's like, I'm making a film, you know, let's talk on your podcast. And I thought, yes, I just want to talk to filmmakers. So as we'll discuss in the podcast and you'll hear she is not currently partnered and has no children. So that gives her probably buckets of time in which to be creative. So we do talk a lot about film, filmmaking, creativity, and what it takes to do that. So she's an independent filmmaker, and that's a lot. I mean, I know a number of the people who have been interviewed here are independent authors. And so as an independent artist, you are solely responsible not only for supporting yourself with your art, but creating the art from the ground up. So for indie authors, that's, you know, writing the books, marketing the books, hiring people to do edits, hiring people to do covers, hiring people to do all of the things that you can't do, and otherwise basically work in the like, 12 hours a day to produce books, market and sell them. And for filmmakers, it's both more and less daunting. It's more daunting in the sense that they have to raise money. Producing a book is not inexpensive, but not the same cost at all as producing a movie. And so with that, to be like an independent filmmaker, you have to raise money and you have to, like, if you write and direct, that's these two things. And she writes, Marlene writes, directs next. So that's three things that she can do, but she can't, you know, act and also film herself. So, you know, it requires, like, a very. Putting together a very not large group of people collaboratively to create the movies and to have this artistic expression. And it's so important to me that we do get to hear those voices. And Marlene's voice is fairly unique. I will link in the show notes to some webisodes and some filming things that she's done on YouTube. And you can see, like, what she uniquely talks about. And she talks about that in the podcast as well. So all of that preface to say that I got to sit down and talk with a filmmaker who is making films and has a unique lens through which she would like to share her thoughts, feelings, emotions. And I want more of that in the world. So without further ado, filmmaker Marlene Ryan. Hi, this is Amy Austin. Welcome to a time to thrill this month. I'm super excited to have a conversation with Marlene Ryan. Hi. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Hi. [00:13:16] Speaker A: How are you? [00:13:18] Speaker B: I'm okay. It's been, like, gloomy in LA for quite a few days, and I wish the sun would reappear. [00:13:25] Speaker A: It's. Oh, it's sunny right now. I mean, I can went to. So I went to go see a play this afternoon, the previews of a play in Los Feliz, and I had to wear my sunglasses on the way home, and it's actually sunny right at this moment. So I'm very excited for the four, the two to 3 hours I'll have sun before Elif in the windows and the gloom will come in. But June Gloom is around the corner. You know this, right? [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yes, but it's like an early preview to the June gloom, as they call it. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been cloudy for weeks. People have this perception of southern California, sort of like, yes, sunny. And when I moved here, I think the thing that I was most surprised about is that it's so cloudy so often, and I understand oceans and all of that, but I didn't see it coming. [00:14:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:13] Speaker A: So let's talk. So you're a filmmaker and you live in LA. How long have you been here? [00:14:19] Speaker B: Well, I did move out here once before, as soon as I graduated college. This is like a 92. And that's when I used my credit cards to start shooting videos for unsigned rappers and did that. I was here for, like, ten years, and I hated it. So I moved back to New York, lived in New York City for almost 20 years, and then moved back here about four and a half years ago, like, right before the pandemic. [00:14:45] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. That's a time to move. I mean, I. Look, I had a lot of plans, like, February 2020. I was gunning for life and going strong, and then I was stuck in my house. So let me ask you this. What caused the bounce back? I mean, I've known people who've moved back and forth. I have not. I just haven't left. But what made you leave? [00:15:06] Speaker B: I felt, in a way, like I was floundering there. And there was a time when I was on the subway, and it was just so noisy. There were all these, like, kids on there, and I just thought, God, I think I'm burnt out. Like, this is a city I love. I love that it feels like a city. I love that no matter what's happening in your life, personal or career wise, you feel like you're at the party, like there's people walking around, and there's an energy. And it's been said that New York is the only real city city, and you feel that. But I was legitimately burnt out. And I also felt like, you know, I'm trying to make these movie projects and stuff like that. And it was like a. It was like three different things. It was like, you know, my sister had followed me out here the first time, and she was going through cancer. She's okay now. But I thought maybe I should be there. But then also, I was burnt out from New York on New York, and I also felt like there's nothing really happening for me there. I love dancing in the clubs. That was like the only thing I had going for me. And I felt like I really need to make stuff happen. I'd done this web series called the so, so you don't know, which is a dark comedy about urban loneliness. And I was going to try to get that as a tv show. Like, I had my sights set on HBO, so I went to LA thinking, well, maybe I'll have a better chance, my film career will be better, and I need to change anyway. So I gave LA another chance. [00:16:30] Speaker A: So how did you find it the first time? Because I moved here in 2001 and it was. It's. Well, it's different. It's years. Yeah, it's different. How can I say this? And I don't know. So that when I moved here, back then, the entertainment world, the entertainment industry, has gone through a huge revolution as the book industry. But what I found is that it was. There were. Let me say this. What I felt, and this may not be true for everyone, is that there were certain tracks to success. And if you couldn't get on that track, it was very difficult to otherwise obtain that. For most people, maybe not comedians, they always seem to have a sidetrack. But if you weren't, let's say, writing for the pilot program or the page program, there's so many programs that they had that sort of funneled people through. But getting into those funnels was fundamentally difficult. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:24] Speaker A: So when you came out the first time, what was your plan? What was your plan? [00:17:30] Speaker B: My plan was because I had such a love of music and dancing and film, I thought, I'm gonna make music videos and I'm gonna do what I want, because, I don't know, I was always a little crazy, and I just thought, you gotta. You take risks and then things happen. I just kind of never sort of subscribed to, I guess, mainstream thinking, but in a way, I thought, well, I have a plan. I'm gonna build a music video reel. I'll find representation. And that's kind of what I did. I used my cards, shot a few videos, and eventually, then fast forward. So I got out here in 92 and 96. I'd only done, like, one or two small videos. And before you know it, I was out at the colonies in Malibu, meeting with Tupac, and his mother was there and a bunch of dudes. And I didn't really know what was going on, but I was about to direct what would be his last video and directed him in May of 2020. Sorry. 90 619 96. It's crazy. I was 26 years old. Biggest, but a $300,000 budget music video we shot on 35 millimeter, and. Yeah, yeah. And then I did a few videos after that, but things didn't kind of go as I planned. Like I thought, oh, you know, now here's my success. Like, here's where it happens. And then, you know, people send you tracks for other things, and you spend your three days coming up with a concept for free. And it just didn't sort of. It didn't, like, happen as I thought it would. [00:18:59] Speaker A: Maintaining momentum can be difficult. You found yourself, like, in meetings and sitting on couches, and then the day after tomorrow, you're like, well, that dried up really quickly. It's the oddest thing. I don't know if it exists in other industries. How did you feel? Like, I know a number of people who started directing music videos, actually. I don't know why. Probably because of the age we all are. What was it about that that attracted you specifically? And I also know people started directing commercials, which is a separate little track. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I love music so much. When I was growing up, I guess, like, in the eighties, I was sort of, like, into two different things. I was into, like, the sort of, I guess, new wave goth, like Susie. And I sang in a band that did covers of Susie and the Banshees, and I loved all that music so much. But then I was also, like, super into, like, eric B. And Rakhem is my favorite group of all time, and Rakhem is, like, my favorite rapper of all time. And there's, like, public enemy, ePmD. Like, that whole era of hip hop, I just live for. I live for it. And so I wanted to take, you know, my. My filmmaking, my creativity, the way that, like, music has always been my only real home in a way, even more so than. Than film. But I wanted to kind of take my love of music with my filmmaking, my creativity, and express to it. And music videos was just, like, the perfect place for that, you know? [00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so then. So I watched, like, the webisodes of the things about the parents and some other things that seems like such a. It seems so filmy, unless, like, there's, like, not that sort of music element. So what was that pivot from the music videos to really just sort of narratives, very specific narratives, comedic and dark. I don't say dark. Yeah, directly comedic narratives. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That's like, that's my thing. Dark humor. I have always loved humor, too. That's, like, a super love of mine. And what I love doing is, like, taking the painful stuff in life, which is, you know, challenges with mental health or dysfunctional family things I know well, you know, and. And creating from it, that's sort of my therapy. Like, anytime things would go wrong or I was going through depression, I create characters from it and stories from it, and it's a great joy to come up with something funny based on some painful stuff. So I kind of used it. And then with the last web series, I made, the so. So you don't know. There was a sort of breakup, I guess, if you could call it that, and this feeling of, like, abandonment and rejection, and I was in such a deep hole I couldn't get out of. And I remember I was living in queens at the time, and I went to my local Dunkin donuts, this little place on the corner. It was, like, my remote office. And I was just trying to journal to, like, get over this depression when this idea of my sort of higher self who curses like crazy at myself, you know, like, to be this therapist, this, like, foul mouthed therapist who's running a groupon special for new clients and have all these different people come in white, black, gay, straight, whatever, like, all seeking some quick cure for their discontent, like I was. But have the message always come back to the need for self love being first? And I thought, oh, this is brilliant. So I wrote that series. And so, like, that's, you know, I have this, like, love of music, but, like, the dark humor is also. It's, like, essential, you know? [00:22:38] Speaker A: So what? Let me say this, because I talked to. I talked to. When I talk to artists, I think one of the main questions I have is, how can I say this? How did you get up to gumption to do that? Because most people. A lot of people, okay, I know a lot of people want to write a book. They want to write a song. They want to do a lot of things, but they don't necessarily just sit down and do it. So what was it, do you think, that gave you that sort of, I don't know, internal push to sit down and write dialogue and, you know, frame a story and not only do that, but then also film it? Those are, like, two. Like, well, there's actually three, like, three distinct sort of different disciplines involved and needs a lot of forward momentum to do that. And even people, I think, in some of the healthiest spaces lack the momentum to move forward with that, yes. [00:23:29] Speaker B: I think that fear and self doubt is the greatest killer of things. And number one, like I'd done before, I shot a movie in 2007 in New York, and I had, you know, shot little other web series I'd done. So I knew, like, oh, I've done this before. I could do it again. But I also, like, I very often do this sort of meditation, if you call it that, where I imagine myself at 90 years old on a rocking chair, and I'm looking back on my life and, you know, what will I have regretted, and it will be the things that I didn't do because I was worried about not being good enough or what people might think of me. I just do that a lot. And I think, you know, no way. I'm not going to stop myself. I know that the fear is there, but I'm going to do it anyway. And I have a lot of fear. I have a lot of self doubt. I mean, it lives huge inside of me. But I also have this other part that's like, I know when I have a good idea, and it's my way of communicating with the rest of the world. Like, here's what I have to say, and I need to say it to you guys, and I think I'm going to make you laugh. And I believe in this work, and sometimes the belief in the work is just a little bit more than the fear. And so you hit the gas and you make it happen at all costs. [00:24:41] Speaker A: So did you, what did you major in? Undergrad. Now I want to know. [00:24:45] Speaker B: I majored in film, and I minored in writing. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Okay, so it wasn't as if, I don't know, like, you majored in biology, and then you got up one day and you're like, what am I going to do? Well, no, I mean, I talked to those people. There's a lot of them. The last person I talked to, like, is a number one best selling author, major in engineering. So, I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but did you feel that that gave you at least some, let's say, terraform or some ground to walk on to start that, as opposed to, oh, my God, how do I structure this? Or, oh, my God, how do I, you know, I don't know, borrow the equipment or hire DP, whatever it is, you know? [00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like I knew from the jump, like, since I was five that I was gonna do this kind of thing like I used to when I was like, six or seven, I would, like, say, okay, we're gonna play library. I'm the librarian. You guys do this, you know, so I always had this love of, like, writing, directing, and acting and stuff. And I thought, I'm gonna be like the female Woody Allen. It was just kind of like, I just went with THIs feeling, just knowing, like, this is inside me. It's gotta come out. So I'm not the kind of filmmaker who's, like, the one with all the cameras and the tech and the editing. Like, I'm so not. I kind of wish I was, but I'm more, like, very much the writer and the performer and the emotional expresser, you know? So I need money to make this stuff. I can't just go and do it. But I kind of, when I'm in that first stage, the creative stage, I'm just on fire. I'm like, one with the spirit. I'm like, writing, we're going to create this. I don't care how we're going to do it. And then once it's in script form, then it's like, okay, we need to raise money or find a way. And I would miraculously somehow do it. And you know what? There's this book, I think his name is Jia Jiang. He wrote a book after his Ted talk called 100 Days of Rejection, and he wanted so badly to get over rejection that he set himself this course of he would go out for 100 days and do things that he knew he would get a no to in order to build resistance to rejection. And I read that in that same Dunkin donuts, actually. It was so inspiring to me because I think what holds me back, and probably holds a lot of people back, is this fear of rejection. Like, it hurts to be rejected, to be told no, because it. We personalize it and think, oh, I'm not good enough. And it just reactivates that old story, and I try to avoid it at all costs. I don't want to feel hurt or rejected. But anyway, I read that book, and I was so motivated that I remember I wrote an email to this guy I know who, he's, like, a millionaire. I had a lot of money, and I was expecting a no. I said, I'm going to do this. And I said, listen, I'm doing this web series. I need $5,000 for this next episode. You want to help me out? And he sent an email back and said, let's meet at Starbucks tomorrow. And he wrote a check for the next episode and the next one after that and the next one after that. And I was able to complete season one of that web series in that way. [00:27:42] Speaker A: That's amazing, I will say, because, you know, as a writer, we talk about rejection all the time, and it does get easier, actually. I just think I care far less than I used to. I'm not sure why. It used to be crippling, and now I'm just like, okay, move on. It's not life or death, but it felt very consequential when I was younger. But I think now there's a bit of freedom of. Okay, well, okay, next is what it is. Okay, next. The other thing you reminded me of is that many years ago, this is the mid nineties, when I was in graduate school, there was a study that came out of Cornell, and they had interviewed people on their deathbed, and they had asked them, what do they regret most? Everybody regretted the chances they didn't take. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Are you talking about the book the five, the top five regrets of the dying? I just don't. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Wrote a book. It was a study, and there was a study, and there was a follow up, and whether or not a book came of it, I don't know. I read it in a student newspaper when I was at Cornell in graduate school, and I haven't thought. I mean, I think about it from time to time, and I think I have the original study, and I know there was a follow up, but there may have been a book. I mean, that's the. That I didn't follow, but I just. I remember reading it in my twenties, and I thought to myself, okay, so I'm not gonna live my life with regret. Yes. Not to say that it didn't happen because there's something they really do regret. Not for trying them, for sticking with them too long. That's actually the biggest regret I have for most things. You try things, if you. I think one of the mistakes that people make is they don't try and abandon. So if people try things and abandon, I think it may be better than trying and stick, you know, banging your head against the wall, hoping for change, but that's a different sort of philosophical discussion. So how. And I'm going to ask you this, because I. So, I've been in LA for a long time. How do you find it, being a woman and a filmmaker in this particular city? Because I know it's a. Well, it's interesting. I'll ask you. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I find it to be quite lonely, to be honest. I feel like, especially in the South Bay where I live, there are a lot of families down here, and there aren't a lot of artists. And so I feel, in a way, like I don't belong. Like, I don't have my tribe or my people around me. I spend a lot of time in certain coffee shops that I love, and I have a great time working on my stuff. But I am definitely, most certainly missing community. And by the same token, like, when I do go to events in Hollywood or wherever that are, like, sponsored by film independent or blah, blah, blah, I feel like I'm one in a thousand people trying to get their film made. And so there's a loneliness there, too, because you feel like you're just looked at as another number. So I don't know. I don't even think this is the best place to be as a female film or even maybe filmmaker. I think that it might be better to live in a smaller place where you can have community and be strengthened by that and be inspired and excited, because it feels like being here is very. It can hurt you because you feel like you're one in a million people trying to do the same thing. When I started out, there were hardly any female directors, and I kind of loved that in a way, because for me, I was like, oh, cool, I stand out, and blah, blah. And now there's been this big push, you know, to be more inclusive and blah, blah, blah. And so people are given more chances. But the fact that I'm an indie filmmaker and not sort of within the studio system is also very challenging and very hard. I'm not happy here in LA. Like, there are things that make me happy, for sure. Like, I go to Redondo beach and I watch dolphins, and that's awesome. And when the sun is out, it's amazing to feel that sunshine on your face and the sort of more tranquil life than in New York, certainly, but it's not necessarily a happy place for creatives. Yeah, that's what I think. [00:31:51] Speaker A: That's interesting. I'm gonna think about that, because I did go to Malibu last week, and I did look at the birds, but it is. I wonder if it's the grind. But I felt that in New York as well. But I felt that in New York as well. I just figured the weather would be better. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah, there's that. [00:32:10] Speaker A: I was like, it's gonna be a grind, but the weather will be better. Interesting. So what did you. Let me say this. Did you make an active decision to remain as an indie filmmaker? Well, was that an active decision? Because I know people who made all. [00:32:25] Speaker B: Sorts of decisions, but sort of, at first, it wasn't there was a time, like initially when I was here before in LA, I had an agent, a manager, an entertainment lawyer, and I went on all these meetings at all the studios and production companies, and they went so well. But because I didn't have a name or whatever, I just couldn't get my projects made. So I was a little disillusioned. And I think I sort of realized at a certain point, the way I am, and I want to tell my stories, and if I want to tell my stories my way, I'm going to have to be independent. And so I did make that decision. Yeah. [00:33:08] Speaker A: So let me ask you this, because I actually have opinions about this, and I have very little opinion, very few opinions about film. What? Okay, let me just be honest about my opinion. In the last, I don't know, let's say, ten years, I've spent more time watching films where it's a writer director versus two different people doing those jobs, because I felt. I feel like in the writer director films, I get the. The story that's being offered is the story that wanted to be told as opposed to a story by committee. And so I've been really drawn to those. And I don't actually know. I have to think about whether those are more popular or not now. But do you feel as an indie filmmaker that you get to tell exactly. Well, more or less exactly the story you want to tell? There's still other actors, but more or less the story you want to tell as opposed to either a writing a story and somebody else directing it or be, you know, directing a story somebody else wrote. I mean, either way. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I only write and direct my own stuff. Like, I don't do. I can't remember, like, since the days I was directing music videos and commercials where it was like, other people's ideas or whatever. Like, although most of the music videos were my ideas, but, yeah, I only do that. I have so little interest in writing for someone else or directing someone else's stuff. It's just at this point. But then again, my series is on Vimeo. I did make a film. It was in a theater in New York for one week. So I haven't, as of yet, had this huge success where my stuff is in mainstream theaters and blah, blah. So, yes, I'm writing, directing these very personal stories, but not all of they haven't been. A lot of them haven't been made yet. I have three movies I'm trying to make, you know what I mean? So what I've done, I've been able to get out there because of YouTube and Vimeo, but that's. It's limited success because of that. [00:35:14] Speaker A: So let me. Okay, so then I guess the next question is. And this is about. So you have done, like. So I looked, when I was looking watching, I guess, on YouTube, like webisodes or, you know, like episodic versus features. Do you have a preference or episodics, I want to say easier to make. They're certainly cheap. They can be cheaper to make, let me say that. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I like them both. There's something I really like about film because it's like this big creative project, and you get to take people on this journey from start to finish and make them feel something kind of big at the end. So I think I do prefer film, although the so. So you don't know web series, which is about ten to 20 minutes in length each episode. And we. I pitched that to HBO and I was hoping to make that a 30 minutes show, but I loved that as well. And I love the short form because it's a lot easier to be funny and, like, a little easier to write also. So I do love that, too. But I think if I had my preference, it would be films because it's an art form, you know, it's this big thing. Yeah. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Okay, that's interesting. Okay. So one of the other things I wanted to ask you is how have you maintained an artistic career over time? Because before we started recording, I was telling a little bit about, but I've been thinking a lot. Let me say this. Now that I've lived in LA 20 something years, I have met a lot of people who came here to have an artistic career and have, I don't want to say abandoned it, have been sidelined. Not necessarily because they had, you know, to eat or something like that, but they have been sidelined creatively for being distracted by the thing. Mainly women in women's issues of caretaking, children, parents, spouses, the gambit. How have you been able to sort of maintain a focus on creating consistently over time? [00:37:11] Speaker B: That's such a good question, I think because I know in my heart that I would be utterly so depressed if I was not doing this, that this has been my number one thing, like, passionately, 1000% not deviating from it. And I've had to do really crappy jobs to sustain myself. Restaurant work, I do some voiceovers, some acting work here and there, but mostly work I don't really want to do. Just with that knowledge that I have these gems, these scripts that I love, and I believe in. But it's come at a huge cost, I have to say. Like, it's the cost of not having a partner right now, not having much family or even that much time with friends because it takes so much out of you to write these things and to try to get them made. I know for me, like, it's what I have to do. I love it so much, and I cannot rest until these movies are made. But I'm also very aware of the cost of human connection that I've lost because of it. And also financially. You know, I'm just how I'm living. I have low overhead so that I can focus on this, but I'm not able to live an extravagant life or go get a massage if I. You know what I mean? It's like, because this has come first, and it's definitely started to take its toll on me over the last year. I'm not gonna lie. Like, that's kind of the truth of where it's at. But on my good days, like, when I'm at coffee bean, which I love, and I'm having my cookies and cream, you know, ice blended, cold brew, whatever, and I'm riding high. I'm like, this story is so funny. People are going to love this. And I'm high off of it. And I feel like I'm so in my purpose, you know? And then I have days when I'm like, oh, my God, I have, like, $2 in the bank. I can't even, you know, afford whatever. It's like, this sucks. Like, how long do I have to go like this? So I have, you know, it's very. It's challenging. It's challenging. [00:39:14] Speaker A: But do you. And I'm gonna ask you this, because I read so in the New York Times today. There was an article about. Okay, there have been a lot of articles and books in the last, let's say, six months, a year talking about women being alone and being happier because of it. So when they do the scale of happiness, single, fulfilled women are at the top, and then there's, like, poorly married women who are at the bottom, and then there's, like, a hash in the middle and there. So there was an essay, I want to say was today, maybe it was yesterday, that was published by a woman who's 50, maybe 51, 52, 53. About my age. And she talked about how she feels very fulfilled and does not necessarily have regrets. She did talk about the lack of human connection, especially because then she was really alone. Alone, alone, you know, for a long period of time in her apartment in New York. But she there, she doesn't regret. There is a certain level of fulfillment for having been able to make a full hearted attempt at doing what she wanted to do. So you don't. If you don't have a. Do you think, and I'm just asking that there was. That there have been big sacrifices along the way. Are they smaller sacrifices which you're okay with in exchange for being able to have this artistic life that's. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Such a great, you know, topic for discussion. I. It's so interesting. It's like, what is fulfillment? I guess, like, I tend to focus, unfortunately, on what's lacking in my life more than what's going great, which is not good. Like, I would love to focus more on gratitude for all the good stuff, you know, like. But I feel like I. Yeah. Big sacrifices. Yeah. Because I feel like human connection is super important. I guess there's a bout, I don't know, like, I would be so unhappy if I was not expressing myself all the time. Like, my thing is, like, I need to be on the dance floor dancing. That's, like, super important. And then I need to be, like, writing and creating and getting my movies made. And if I wasn't doing that, I would feel like I didn't have oxygen. Like, I would not be fulfilling my purpose, and I would surely go into depression. But at the same time, like, the lack of human connection is a killer. So I don't know. I definitely don't feel massively fulfilled right now. I feel somewhat fulfilled, but I think there's some balance is missing, at least for me. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. So I will say this, and I've been thinking about this a lot in the last. Because I went to a book talk last week about these sorts of things, finding that balance for women, at least in the US. I'm not. I cannot speak for the world is one of the most difficult things because we're sold generally. Let's. I don't call it, like, Disney or romance or whatever it is. We're sold that there's this magical fulfillment with a partner and children or whatever that life is, whether, you know, maybe it comes with a minivan, I don't know. And people drive a minivan. I have so many feelings about a minivan. So I'm sorry. This is just my personal dislike of that. So there's that. But many of the people I know who are living that life, and I know quite a few do not feel the fulfillment because they can't fulfill the artistic part and then on the other hand, I know people who are doing the artistic part who do have the. Either they're doing it and they're doing it well, but they don't have the balance because they're expected to do all the caretaking and everything as well. So that's really hard. They're, like, working 80 hours a week. I don't know how they do it. And then. Or on the other hand, they're doing there where you are. They're doing the artistic part but don't have that. And I don't know if there's. I don't know if there's a balance or how to create the balance. I think maybe. I actually think I know. I think maybe we just need funding for artists. And I think maybe that would solve the problem, because at least in some european countries, they have, like, artists funding. And I'm not saying it's great. I mean, it becomes. It's sort of like, you know, a welfare base of income or, you know, it's a base of income, but it gives people some freedom from having to hustle for the essentials in life, like for food and healthcare. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. I spent a lot of time in Europe. I was actually more successful in London directing music videos than I was here. They have a greater respect for artistry. They're a little more cerebral. There's just a whole more mature way of looking at art. And there's more of an appreciation for it in Europe than here, by far. Yeah, I think I was gonna say. I think also, like, like you were saying, we're sort of raised with this fairy tale notion of all the things that we want are outside of us, like the romance and the partner. And if I just make enough money, and I think that. And I've been thinking a lot about this lately, the importance of bringing your wholeness to life as opposed to getting things to get whole. Like, if you are seeking for a romantic partner to make you whole or to make life okay, or for the film to be made for you to then be happy. Like, I think you'll be miserable. And I know this just for myself, that you have to find the growth and the joy of the process and how far you've come and the abundance that you are inside yourself. You bring that wholeness to the party, and that's when life gets good. And I think a lot of people, and I know even from, you know, working in restaurants and watching people, you know, married couples or people on dates come together and they're looking at their phones, the whole time. Like, people aren't even connecting. And a lot of people are so unhappy even in their partnerships, because they're not. They're not bringing the love from within. I don't know. I feel like we live in a very disconnected and unconscious society, and I think there needs to be more love and more. More of a sense of giving as opposed to feeling this lack and feeling like if we don't have it from the outside, that we're nothing. [00:45:43] Speaker A: No, I think that's true. And I sometimes wonder about the fundamental base of, at least, like, american society with rugged individualism and then throw that, like, a little puritanical on that, that it makes it. If you're supposed to work really hard and, you know, if you just grind or whatever they call it now, you know, if you work really hard and you, like, pull yourself by bootstraps or all of these sort of things we have, then you'll be happy. And I think that we're living in a world where people are realizing that those things aren't necessarily true. But it totally. But it takes so long. It's like, I'm gonna get this house and get this car and get this thing and get this thing. And people, it takes. People spend so much time getting the things or getting the person or whatever that is, and then they get it and they go, okay, I'm not happy. But they've spent. We have a lot of sunk cost fallacy going on as well. So people have spent so much time trying to get whatever it is that they don't want to explore it any more deeply because that represents a loss of time and opportunity that people, I think, do not want to reflect upon. Yeah, that's a hard one. So one of the things I think so when I was watching your things, you have a very distinct voice. And how have you maintained a particularly distinct voice over time? Because there's been a lot of conversations, especially with the advent of streaming about in the beginning with streaming, and even previous to that with, like, particularly HBO shows or whatever it is, there were some very particularly strong voiced things, and people are. The complaint I have heard about streaming now is that in the beginning, the voices were distinct, and now we're hitting this sort of mid level, which is better than, like, seventies and eighties sitcoms or, you know, dramas, but is still sort of smoothing out the individuality that we got at the beginning of streaming. But one of the things, at least in this last, when the change over time, you seem to have maintained a distinct voice. How do you think you've done that. [00:47:42] Speaker B: I think I just write from what I'm feeling, and that's it. I'm not really trying to. I don't necessarily feel like I have a brand or whatever. It's sort of just whatever I'm going through, whatever story I feel needs to be told, I just tell it. And I think it comes out a certain way. But it's interesting. I don't watch as much as I should, but I recently watched baby reindeer, and what I loved about it was the raw, personal, authentic nature of it. And I felt like my. At least the film, the next one I'm trying to make, is kind of a lot like that, tonally speaking. And I loved that. I found it so interesting that that was so successful because it felt like something in my realm, like something I would write, something very personal and gritty and raw and a little taboo, even. Like, that's my kind of stuff. And it's like, look like that quirky, whatever stuff is number one on Netflix. I thought, how cool. There must be room for me then. You know, I think there is. [00:48:41] Speaker A: And, you know, the artists, filmmakers, writers, whatever that I know and actors that I know in LA, we have these conversations all the time, because I was at some gala and some, like, director was like, our producer was like, I wonder how we get more distinct voices out there. And I had a lot of thoughts about the things that he eventually made, but I did not. I cannot say that at a dinner, but I think that there is room for those voices, and I think there is a huge audience for them, but there's. And especially with, like, the filtering systems and things that we have gatekeepers, it's harder to get those out, and they become popular. It happens every so often, something strikes people. Like, I didn't think this was, like, the kind of thing people would want. So they either then copy it or don't make any more, and you're just like, okay, yes. And so we had talked about, like, I had. So the producer was sitting at the gala, you know, and the horrible chicken food dinner, and basically, you know, you're dressed up, and I was wearing heels, and I'm like, in. The food's awful. That hasn't changed, but what am I gonna do? [00:49:52] Speaker B: Oh, that's the thing. Like, you're dressed up. It's like, at least, you know, serve some lobster rolls. You know, I put on something. What is this? [00:50:02] Speaker A: I just feel like that is the one thing that hasn't changed, but that's okay. Different conversation. So. But what was interesting is that like, and there's an actress sitting on the other side of me. They were honoring, well, some actors and some, whatever. That's a super conversation. So what was interesting is that there was an actress next to me. She's like, well, why can't you just, like, fund, like, ten movies? And, like, she said, well, it's $15,000, whatever it is. Fund these ten things. She's like, and then maybe one of them will hit. But you at least to get ten distinct voices that are different than the. And she was not as circumspect as I am. Different than, like, the same, like, same crap, different day that you're, like, reducing. And he was like, that's such an interesting idea. And then went home. And probably, you know, I don't know. Who knows what will come of that? But I thought it was interesting because I feel like if we. Okay, I don't. I'm not gonna get superheroes. I don't know if we need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to tell the same story over again. I think we could spend far less and tell many different stories, and people could find their niche, and I don't. I think you make a profit with all of them. Would everything be like, a. Would you make a billion dollars worldwide? Maybe not. And if that's the goal, then. Then. Then this would not work. But I do think there's got to be space for that. But, alas. What? I can't. I can't fix the world, no matter how many producers I meet. Because at the end of the day, like, I see that, I go to those screenings, and I'm like, oh, we're the same thing. But at least the director's guild become free, and the parking was free. So I'm gonna be honest. Like, I'm like, well, I didn't pay anything for it. And I got to hear the director and actor talk, and I can just go home. It didn't cost me $50. So, okay, so currently, you're fund. You're raising funds for a movie. So let's talk about that. How? Tell us, tell us, tell us, tell listeners. What is your. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Okay, so this film is a dark comedy called who is Joy Sriracha? And it's a lot like waiting for Guffman or even living in oblivion. It's sort of mockumentary, but with drama. And it's about this woman who is so sensitive and traumatized by current events that she splits off into three different personalities and unwittingly becomes the subject of her new boyfriend's documentary. So it's very, it's very funny, but it's kind of satirical and it poses the question, can you find hope in this dark world of violent news that you're bombarded with every day? And, yeah. Trying to raise money. I'm doing a crowdfunding campaign. You can check it out on my website, Marlene Ryan.com. yeah. And I wrote it because I. Well, number one, at the end of last year, some really, like, you know, horrible, violent current events occurred. And I noticed, you know, feeling so paralyzed by it, but even more so by the comments I was reading and the ignorance and people not, like, doing research of, you know, history of certain people and just jumping on bandwagons and the bad grammar in the comments, blah, blah, blah. Like, I was definitely, I felt paralyzed. And I, after a few weeks, I just decided, like, again, like, writing a film based on this feeling became liberating. And so I wrote a dark comedy, very christopher guest style and. But it's very funny, if I may say. [00:53:45] Speaker A: And so what is it that you're. Well, let me ask you this. I assume you're going to direct and you will also act. So what is it that. What is your expectation, like with crowdfunding? What is it that you're looking to do film wise? I mean, is it a certain level of money, a certain amount of time? What is it that you're looking. How big? Yeah, I don't want to say how big. You know, there's different tiers of, like, money and film. What is it that you want to do story wise? [00:54:14] Speaker B: Well, it's a $350,000 film, which is low budget for film standards, so I'm doing, like, I'm looking for investors. At the same time I'm doing the crowdfunding because the crowdfunding, we've partnered with a nonprofit, so all donations are tax deductible, which makes it more appealing for some people. So I'm kind of doing both of those concurrently, but, yeah, trying to raise the money so we could shoot this summer. Yeah. Who is Joyce Hiracha? [00:54:44] Speaker A: Would you shoot here? I mean, here in LA? [00:54:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It actually takes place in LA. It takes place in LA. And the character I played finds this guy off this app, and he's kind of like a failed musician, but he's in a cholo metal band. And his grandmother, his abuela, is about to lose her house. Kids gonna go into foreclosure and become a chipotle. And he discovers this documentary contest where he could win enough money to save her house. And so he decides to make the documentary about joy and her mental health disorder, but she thinks that he's making, you know, an art film for his band to play in the back when he's on stage. [00:55:25] Speaker A: That was my next question. Does she know? Because that's. [00:55:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She finally becomes aware of what he's doing, but by that time, he's, like, kind of fallen in love with her, you know, unwittingly, I guess, wittingly. Yeah, yeah. But then when she discovers it, she's got to find her self esteem finally. Yeah. [00:55:48] Speaker A: So, wait, how many actors do you think you would need? Is it. [00:55:53] Speaker B: It's quite a few. [00:55:55] Speaker A: I know, because it sounds two people. [00:55:58] Speaker B: But, yes, it's kind of like they're at the center of it. But then there are about, like, ten other people, and the crew are going to be interviewed kind of, you know, mockumentary style. Like, it'll come off like it's a documentary, but the crew is being interviewed about how they feel about things and what they do and how they feel about life. [00:56:17] Speaker A: So I have, like, a, like, kind of a crafty question. This is probably too insane. So I'm thinking about this, like, practically. How do you tend to cast? [00:56:29] Speaker B: Well, I have my eye on, like, you know, a few people that. That I either know or whatever. There's this one famous actress who's attached to one of my other projects, so I kind of wrote a part for her in this. But then I like to work with the casting director and sort of have a really fun collaborative, like our. Who do you think would be good for this? You know, and kind of go through people. So, yeah, it's mostly the casting director thing. [00:57:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:01] Speaker B: I can't wait to get money for it. So I can, like, sit and actually, you know, have that meeting. I love that. Like, you sit somewhere and it's like, what about this person? And having it come to life is so much fun. Yeah. And sometimes, like, it's. It's really disheartening, because when you write something and it's on paper, it has infinite possibilities, and it's this beautiful, untouched, pure thing and this character. But then when a real person voices those lines, and sometimes it's not as magical in person as it was on paper. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Do you. [00:57:32] Speaker B: And that's disappointing. [00:57:33] Speaker A: I could see that. Do you do. Since you're writing director, you have, like, more liberties than other people. Well, I can get to how things are made here. Do you do rewrites while shooting or not? Or do you allow improvisation while shooting? Separate from yourself. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Definitely allowing improv, especially, like, this project, I'm sure we'll have a lot of it because it's a comedy and because it's a fake documentary. So that aspect of it will allow for whatever. I definitely love that and encourage little bits here and there. But I'm also very aware of the time and nurturing and love it takes to put a story together with a specific structure and the rewrites and how you weave together these intricacies to have this beautiful feeling at the end. And so I'm very much like a writer in that you have to respect the writing. And I think certain improv, you'll know on set. Does that work? Does that add to the story? So I allow for it, but I really just. I treat the script as very sacred because so much time has been poured into it, you know? [00:58:42] Speaker A: So then let me ask you this then. How many, like, okay. Given their budget limitations, how many takes do you normally do? I mean, are you, like a one take person or like two? Like, let's do one on script, one improv, and then we're done. And it was lovely chatting. [00:58:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm kind of like that, actually. I. It's funny as a joke. I'm the one take wonder because I used to edit, like, when I was doing music videos when I started, I used to edit all my own stuff. So when I write or when I shoot, I kind of think like an editor. It's like, did we get what we needed for the story? Then let's move on, because we have a lot to shoot, you know, especially if you're constrained by low budgets and you don't. You can't go into extra time. But, yeah, I tend to work really fast. Just do a couple of takes, unless you're not getting it, and then you have to take the time. But, yeah, I just do, like, one or two or three, and that's it. [00:59:32] Speaker A: So you don't, do I? Well, let me ask you. I assume. I assume. Do you do your own editing or no? I assume not. [00:59:38] Speaker B: No. [00:59:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:59:39] Speaker B: No. [00:59:39] Speaker A: Do you then? Oh, I have so many feelings about editors. So let me say this. Do you sit in on the editing, or do you just leave and then send me, like, a cut? [00:59:52] Speaker B: Usually what will happen is I'll have, like, a great talk, in depth conversation with the editor. This is what I want. And then it's like, go do your thing. When you come up with the rough cut, let me know. And then you get the rough cut, and then you give the notes, and they'll show you something else. And then at that point, I go in and sit down and say, okay, let's work together. Let's make magic together and fine tune this. So, yeah. [01:00:20] Speaker A: I think we should be much of a control freak for this whole process. And I'm gonna ask you this randomly, because since you have a love of music, what is your process for adding music? Or do you not do it yourself either? I've known music editors who. Okay, there's, like, a whole gambit. There's always. There's, like, people who, like, write music from people who are like, I'm gonna add these ten songs. We're gonna figure out how they fit. So, I mean, it's just like, it's such a gambit. It met so many people. But what is your. Let me say this. What is your approach to music? [01:00:52] Speaker B: It really depends. It depends. Like, one of my scripts is kind of like. It's like an old school hip hop dance drama. So it's like, it's got specific music in it, and that music has got to be there, and we've got to raise the money to make sure we can afford that music and, you know, some flexibility. But then, like, with something like this, like, the who is Joy Sriracha project, it's a comedy, and I don't. I feel like I'm gonna get to post, and then, you know, I'll work with the composer or music supervisor and pull music in and kind of see how that works. And I think it'll. It'll wait for that for post production, especially on something so low budget you can't, like, get married to an idea of a certain song with, however it might, you kind of know, but totally. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Like, well, okay, I see way more dramas than comedies, but. So dramas, like, you need that, you know, that really dramatic, like, amp up to the get to the tension comedies actually don't know. I mean, I hear it, but I don't think about it as much. So is it as. Is it. How important is it for you to sort of layer foreshadowing or however you want to use it or as, like, sort of an emphasis of humor or things like that? How important is music for you in that sense? [01:02:15] Speaker B: It's. It's a little more important on the dramas I write, but it's, I have to say, less important with the dark comedies, I'm kind of, like, more, like, about the writing, so much about the writing and the good acting and da da da, that it's. It's honestly more of an afterthought. With the music. Yeah. [01:02:35] Speaker A: I just wonder, because that's my feeling, too, about drama. But that's. But I. Because I prefer dramas, I think to some degree, I then pay more attention or it's more important for me to create tension. And so I, you know, I think about it in comedy. I hear it, but I don't pay as much attention because comedy is more about listening to what people are saying. [01:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's. Yeah, yeah. And I think also they call editing the second writing of a film, which it is. And it's. That's one reason I love it. It's because you are. You're writing the film all over again. And I think that's the process where you start thinking, like, at least for me, that's when we start thinking about it. Like, let's rewrite this in the edit room with, does music work here? Does it heighten the emotions? Do we need it? But it's not something I think so much of beforehand. [01:03:25] Speaker A: Okay. The reason I asked is because you had a background where you cared more about music than many filmmakers that I know. So people, many filmmakers are way more about the story of the tension, whatever the last. Whatever the thing is that they're trying to do. And for many of them, music's an afterthought. But then I know somebody who writes film scores, so, you know, and clearly they're not an afterthought for him. But we talk about it from time to time because he comes in later as a composer and, you know, does X, Y or Z. What do you. Let me say this. So in. I feel like in the. Maybe it was the fundraising video for this, you talked about this and other things that you want to write. What do you see as the, I guess, the forward progression of your career? Like, after you make this, or are you going to do things simultaneously? Although that's kind of hard, but people do because you. Because you got to eat. What do you see as, like, the sort of forward progression after this or in the next, let's say, year or two? [01:04:29] Speaker B: Yes, yes, definitely after this. I want to make. I renamed it. Not a nothing. And that's based on the so. So you don't know series I talked about. It's a feature film based on the first episode of that. So I want to make that next. And then after, I want to make my hip hop dance movie when the bass drops. Yeah. I want to do these three films. [01:04:51] Speaker A: Okay, so that's ambitious. It's not as if there's not things on your horizon. It's so interesting, because I meet people who are not artists. Their questions are always like, where do you come up with ideas? And I'm like, have you met people? There's nothing. Ideas are like a dime a dozen. It's like the time, money and effort and execution of the idea. That's the thing, you know, the thing that, like, you know, changes. Changes the equation. So let me ask you this. And you talked a little bit about mental health and some of the personal. Do you see a theme throughout, some sort of thematic, like, arc in your artistic career? [01:05:33] Speaker B: Definitely. I think that my characters all kind of start in a sort of small sense of self. Low self esteem, maybe unaware, you know, and go through a journey where they are forced by rough circumstances or. Or whatever, or passion for something, wanting something so bad, not being able to get it, and then wind up with personal strength and hope. That is sort of the recurring theme in my films. [01:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So I appreciate that you get it because I do talk to other people who don't. It takes them a long time to see that through line, even though I think as a consumer of their art, you can see it. But, of course, you're distant, so, you know, that's easier that way. What? Let me say this. I do want to ask this. How do you enjoy doing the acting and directing? I know some people who find it difficult and some people who very much enjoy it. [01:06:42] Speaker B: You mean at the same time, or do you have. Well, yeah. [01:06:46] Speaker A: Or how do you do it? Because I. Okay. I know people who do it two ways. One, they really do do it themselves, and that's the one thing. Or they have somebody else who directs the scenes where they're in. But if they're in all the scenes, then that's. Then they're not. You know what I mean? There's some different issues that come up. [01:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's definitely super challenging. You know, you'll be sitting there in the makeup chair and, like, the DP's got questions for you and you're like, shit, you know? Like, you really need to get into character because it's two totally different. You know, when you're acting, you have to be vulnerable and open and soft and receptive, you know? And then when you're directing, you have to be the leader and you have to know what's up and be on top of stuff and be strong. And so it's very challenging. However, I really love it. And what I'll do is I'll have people around me who I trust and who are good with stuff. Like, there'll be like a casting director or makeup artist that I'm friends with, and I'll say, all right, tell me, what did you think? How was that? And they'll give me feedback, and then I kind of know what they're talking about and do it again if I need to. But I've sort of been doing it a lot. And so I kind of thrive in that chaos, but it definitely is chaotic. [01:08:00] Speaker A: So then what are your shooting days like? Because there's so much. Okay, there's, like, the prep and then there's, you know, being on set and then there's, like, maybe watching daily. I don't know what you do after. I mean, that's a, it's a long process. So how do you structure your days when you're doing that kind of thing? [01:08:18] Speaker B: Well, there, you know, so there's pre production where there's meetings, like, you know, meetings with the casting director or whoever, location scouting, and you're there with the producer, maybe the, you know, meetings with the ad, going through stuff. It's not, not as much fun when you're talking about the schedule breakdown. I lose interest, but you have to do it. [01:08:38] Speaker A: I love that part, but that's me. That's my brain. [01:08:42] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:08:44] Speaker A: Who would have thought? Like a really well structured, okay day moving on. [01:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, then on the shoot day, there's, you're always, like, really nervous that first day. It's like 06:00 call and you're all there and, you know, people are still strangers at that point. It's funny. That just reminded me, this video surfaced recently. It was a behind the scenes video on my first feature film, and it was a little video about the making of the big shot collar, which was my first film. And it just, oh, it brought back tears because it was so much fun to do that. It was in New York we shot in 2007, and there's video of me with the grip and the gaffer, and I'm teaching them a dance routine at, like four in the morning after we wrapped. And we're just, like, laughing and, you know, because at that point in the filming, when everyone's bonded, it's like summer camp, you know, you're like, oh, man, there's nothing like, it's like a family that you, you know. So, yeah, it's like long days. Twelve hour days. Start at. Go through what the next shot is going to be with your DP and ad and talk about it. Talk with the actors. Talk with hair and makeup. This is what I want. Wardrobe is going to show you a few things. You want this, this, or this? You pick. Always making choices, you know, decisions on production designer. Are we using a backdrop? You know, what are we doing here? Blah, blah. So constant decision making. And then it's fun at lunch. You get to sit and talk with people, but usually, like, too much going on. I can't even eat, you know? But then I remember, like, when I was shooting my first feature in New York City, I was so happy and fulfilled to be like, oh, my God, I'm directing this movie I wrote in a corner of Starbucks while listening to Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah on repeat like it was on paper. And now we're shooting it, and I'm co starring in it, and. And my head would hit the pillow, and I just felt like, oh, my God, life is so good. Life is so good. I remember that. That feeling, like, just so content. [01:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I will say that. So I think that at least my experience of being on set, not working myself, and just hanging out there is a. Well, there's controlled chaos. Some. Well, no, sometimes it's just chaos, but let's call it controlled chaos. But with the controlled chaos, I. That's one place where I have seen 90% of people, there's, you know, whatever, who are deeply fulfilled because they're getting to do the thing they want to do and create, collaboratively create this tv show, movie, whatever it is thing that they're doing. And it's such a. It's such a high. It's such a high. [01:11:23] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:23] Speaker A: I don't know. [01:11:24] Speaker B: Oh, my. [01:11:24] Speaker A: Everybody's like. Everybody's like. I mean, I've never seen so many people who are happy and fulfilled and just, like, can tune out the outside world and all come together to create. So it is a. It's like a magical. It's a magical place. And I won't say that's like, seeing people come off of it. Like, the low. It's like a mini depression is really hard to come back to. Like, you know, I gotta go to Trader Joe's and get my food. You know what I mean? Like, it's just a completely different thing, but it is a hugely magical space. Do you think about editing at the time? Do you make notes to yourself, like, this will be great, or do you. Or do you let that go while you're making the film? [01:12:04] Speaker B: I think about it. I think about it a little bit, but I just want to back to what you said about the collaborative creativity that is just. Oh, my. That's what I live for. And that's the reason I do these crappy jobs and hold out hope that I'm going to make this movie at some point. It's because of. There are two super freaking magical moments that are so happy for me. It's the collaborative creativity on set, that high that you get when you're working with people to create something. Such joy. And then there's that feeling in a movie theater where you're watching what you made and celebrating it that are just so amazing. And it's what I live for. Anyway, I just had to say. [01:12:49] Speaker A: I've lived here a long time, and the hustle and grind of the day to day is not glamorous. There's no glamour to. I mean, the weather's great, but it lacks glamour. But those kinds of occasions, I don't think. I don't say make it all worthwhile, but they. It's something that is difficult to achieve outside of this kind of creative process, at least as far as I know. I don't know. I don't know the world. Maybe there's some other way to achieve it. I. Maybe if I'd split the atom or something, I'd have that achievement. I can't say, like, I don't know, like, now that I say that loud, there's probably other things. I just don't know them. But it's just. It's. It's a. It's a special thing. It's very special, and it's. It's a lot to create that sort of special bubble and then be able to then also have the fruit of that labor. It's. It. Yes, it's a special thing. So I. [01:13:45] Speaker B: Yes. [01:13:46] Speaker A: What? Let me say this. So are you close to your fundraising goal and what? Well, we're all looking for the special golden. The special angel who's going to come and pay a fund at all. Although that comes. That's fraught. I have found that out. When one person writes the magic check, but then sometimes it's megalomaniac. What is it? What would be the ideal combination of funding for you? [01:14:17] Speaker B: I think it would be if one person said, let me write you a check for this movie for $350,000. [01:14:24] Speaker A: Okay. [01:14:25] Speaker B: Yes. I would like it to be simple and easy, or two people contributed half each. Yeah, that would be ideal. [01:14:35] Speaker A: If you can come forward and you're successful with making this and the other films, I think that'll fulfill the craving a lot of people will have for unique, different, interesting voices. And I wish you the best of luck with that going forward. [01:14:50] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much. I hope that people share that craving, and hopefully they do. And. Yeah, yeah. It's just a matter of getting it made and getting it out there and finding the audience. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. We have that conversation all the time. Because there is the making and then there's the finding the audience, because the people with the craving don't always know that the thing exists, and it's meeting the two without, like, a $250 million, you know, marketing budget. So, yes, that's. Yes, all of that. So I want to thank you so much for talking to me today. I wish you the best of luck. [01:15:29] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. [01:15:31] Speaker A: The funding of Joyce Raja and I hope. Hope that the sun comes out. [01:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. [01:15:40] Speaker A: But I have no, I can't. I can't control that either. But thank you so much for. [01:15:45] Speaker B: We're just gonna have to go with. [01:15:46] Speaker A: It for being with me today. [01:15:49] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. [01:15:55] Speaker A: This has been a time to thrill with me, your host, author, Amy Austin. [01:15:59] Speaker B: If you. [01:16:00] Speaker A: If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you share, rate, and leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It will help others find and enjoy my conversations with brilliant women creators. Also, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast app. In addition to hosting this podcast, I'm the author of the Nicole long series of legal thrillers. The first four books in the Nicole Long series are now live. You can download, outcry, witness major crimes without consent, and the murders began to your e reader. Right now I'm also the author of the Casey Court series of legal thrillers. These titles are available wherever books are sold, your local library, and also an audiobook. My next book, his last mistress, is available for pre order wherever you get your books. You can also follow me on Instagram and Facebook. Ealthriller author. You can find me on tiktokocial thriller author. You can also find this podcast on Facebook at a time to thrill. Thanks for listening, and I'll be back with you soon with more great conversations.