Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to take a moment to thank this episode's sponsor, Audible. You know how much I love a good story. I write them, I read them, and sometimes when I can't sit down long enough to open a book, I listen to them. Lately, I've been listening to Audible while I walk, travel, or even sometimes while cooking dinner. There's something about hearing a story perform that makes it come alive in a different way.
[00:00:28] I just finished. Okay, Julie Chan Is Dead by Lian Zhang, an Alice Feeney book, Beautiful, Ugly, and the latest Linley book by Elizabeth George. So I'm going to be honest. This is how I do it. I get a book both on Kindle and on Audible and I go back and forth listening to both. So when I'm driving in the car or with my son at some activity, I will listen to audiobooks. And then when I'm home, I read them on Kindle. And Audible makes it easy to switch back and forth in the app.
[00:01:04] Honestly, I do it every time. I just, I want to keep the book going while I'm driving. And so I just switch to the audiobook and then when I get home, I switch back to the Kindle because honestly, I can read faster than I can listen.
[00:01:20] Anyway. The best part is that with Audible you get a 30 day free trial. You can start listening today. You get one audiobook you can keep forever even if you cancel. So if you've been wanting to read more stories that Pull youl In and Won't Let Go, including my own Casey Court series which are all available on audible, go to audible.com the link is in the show Notes or in the alternative ebooks buzz Audible.
[00:01:46] Hi and welcome to the Politics of Justice. It's me, your host, Amy Austin. Let's get back to Ransom today.
[00:01:52] Before I start, this is my last plug for the Unquiet grave by Dervlyn McTiernan.
[00:01:58] I'm like nearing the end. It's actually hard.
[00:02:02] I was walking this morning at the crack of dawn because it's literally like 98 degrees outside. It's never been this hot here that I can remember.
[00:02:13] Okay. It's never been this hot. So I've been taking these walks at like 6:30 in the morning and I was walking along the river or what's left of it. It's very, very dry.
[00:02:22] So I was walking along the river listening to this book and we were like getting toward that like the denouement where you're like rapidly like descending toward the end and the police Figuring out what's going on.
[00:02:34] I don't know what else is on the phone. It's. It's actually, let's see, maybe you'll have some suggestions for me. Oops.
[00:02:44] In the comments. Okay, so after I finish the Unquiet Grave, what do we have that we can both read and listen to?
[00:02:55] Oops. Oh, interesting. Okay, that book just left.
[00:02:59] So we have High Season.
[00:03:02] Oh, I think I'm going to quit that.
[00:03:06] And oh, We Were Never Here by Andrea Bartz. I guess that's probably what's next up.
[00:03:14] Oh, no, let's see what else do I have? So I only do it if I have an audio.
[00:03:20] I have Roxanna Robinson leaving.
[00:03:24] Yeah, that's it.
[00:03:26] The High Season. I actually give up on. It's. There's a five year old. I don't know. She testified. Something's going to happen. I'm 20% in. I don't know if I'm going to find out what's going to happen.
[00:03:36] I was trying to read the Golden Couple. No luck with that.
[00:03:39] But I am looking forward to starting something new.
[00:03:43] So as you know, I both read and listen at the same time.
[00:03:47] It allows me to actually never be without a book. I would have loved this as a child. So it allows me to go out and about and go for walks and do shopping. Like I had to get milk this morning and do other errands while listening and then come back and read. I read for a couple of hours and now I'm actually going to sit down and finish Ransom with you. So without further ado, let's get back to it. When we left off, Casey was doing her thing.
[00:04:16] When we left off, the judge had been arrested, Casey had been proposed to, and Claire was mostly feeling sorry for herself, frankly, so.
[00:04:28] And I feel for her. I do, I do, I do.
[00:04:31] Let's start back with chapter 32. It's a Cayce chapter.
[00:04:35] So as you know, the last time we talked about we had a Casey POV. She had just been proposed to.
[00:04:43] So it's March, March 1, 2004, and the first line is, I saw you in the paper. Letty said her words were matter of fact, but she was looking at me like I was. Jennifer Aniston beamed in straight from Hollywood.
[00:04:59] So Letty is Casey's assistant and the I saw you in the paper means that she's engaged.
[00:05:08] I forget what it was. I don't remember the name of the paper. I mean, there's a wedding section of the New York Times, but there was an engagement section in The Plain Dealer.
[00:05:17] And I assumed. I don't know, I was never in it. That it would be a big deal to be in it.
[00:05:25] And so she says she can't help but smile. She says she looks amazing. And she's no longer on the outside of Cleveland society looking in. She's where she's always wanted to be.
[00:05:36] She talks about how she'd seen her mom flip through the pages so many times, looking at beautiful girls with their dashing fiances and husbands. And then she would look down at her own ample framework and hand and smile almost wistfully, because I think. I think maybe this desire comes from Casey. So her parents, long story short, met, like, during World War II and, you know, and came here as European immigrants after that. And I think that her mother sort of instilled in her this idea that there's, like, this American dream. Part of that dream involves, like, this sort of outside recognition.
[00:06:13] So the chapter goes on. Basically, it's a recent flashback where clearly, Casey had taken the paper with the engagement announcement to her parents, and they are taken to her parents. But, okay, so her mom is thrilled, but her dad is a little bit more.
[00:06:34] There's. There's some quietness there because they're very close, and he hadn't mentioned. She hadn't mentioned to them that she was dating him. So her dad says, did he put you in a time machine? We didn't know you were dating him. Again, the note is that it's a dad joke that's kind of funny, but I like the idea of, like, the dad saying that.
[00:06:55] And so she explains that, you know, he called her in September, and they're like, it's five months, and you didn't tell us, not during Thanksgiving, not during Christmas, not during New Year's Eve, when I loaded the pants of strudel into your car, that you were dating this guy again.
[00:07:10] So, I mean, they do feel a little left out.
[00:07:13] But her dad.
[00:07:15] Her dad leaves the room. Her dad's like, I'm over this right now. But her mom's like, you know, when will the wedding?
[00:07:21] And the truth is.
[00:07:24] And then she says, and this is hard. We haven't really talked about it, but maybe fall. His family has offered to pay.
[00:07:30] And her mom's like, oh, the bride's family should pay. But, I mean, everybody knows that they can't afford the Lakewood Country Club, and that's where all the family weddings are. So she shows them the stone, and it's a huge Princess Got solitaire.
[00:07:44] And so she says, for my mother's, breathless demand. I knew I'd fulfilled dreams she'd long ago abandoned.
[00:07:52] She said the aura of having pleased my mother had lasted for nearly two weeks. She fawned over the ring, then it teared up over the pictures Lulu had taken before I left the apartment.
[00:08:03] And the glow started all over again with the picture in the newspaper. And so Casey, admittedly bought, like, quite a few copies herself.
[00:08:10] So that's just like the flashback. But truthfully, in this chapter, she's in the office talking to her assistant, and it's. It has come to her that Claire is now going to be out here having to testify. And she said it wasn't that I'd breached my fiduciary duty, but I was extremely conscious that I traded her testimony for my own.
[00:08:38] And she really had. Like she had. She might have had to testify, and instead, now, you know, Claire has been subject to this awful sting, and then we'll have to testify. And the note says, I'm not sure if there was a right, a good choice here. And I don't know. Like, I don't.
[00:09:00] Ultimately, let's just say the goal for everyone and for society and for justice is that this judge was caught.
[00:09:09] The mechanism used to catch him dodgy. Okay, so we're up to chapter 33, Miles. So we've skipped ahead in a bunch of times. So that was March, and now we're up to May 3, 2004. And as an author, I'll tell you, the reason we had to jump ahead is because of the need to prep before trial. You know, nobody goes to trial on day one, despite how it appears on, like, TV shows. So TV shows, they just. Well, I don't know what they do to account for the time that I think about it, but in this case, we just have to account for the time.
[00:09:45] So it's a Miles chapter. And he talks about. The first line is, I hate. I hated being a spectator on my own case, but that's how Chaz saw it. As much work as I put into the case, I was never going to be first chair on a trial of this magnitude and said, I'm sitting on the sidelines behind the bar while Chaz and Rachel, who got second chair, sucked up all the glory. So. And he's a little annoyed. I mean, you know, look, getting credit and moving ahead, I guess, is the currency of professional life and especially being an attorney. I mean, the number of times you have to declare how often your first chair on a trial is what gets you to the next level. So even when you're applying for a job and you think, how many trials. Trials did your first chair, how many trials did you second chair? How many?
[00:10:32] Because they want to know that you have the skills to go to trial. But of course, you can't get the experience without having the job. And you can't get the job without having the experience.
[00:10:39] So he's sitting behind the bar with the FBI Valdispino, and he's really.
[00:10:48] He really thinks he should be third chair. And they don't actually. They rarely do it. And in this case, the excuse was that they didn't want to look like the government was getting up on him, despite the fact that even Bernie probably has nine.
[00:11:00] Has, like, 9,000 lawyers on his side, which, actually, I think people do less and less because then it looks like the defendant is real guilty anyway. But. But they. No matter what you see, like, at a trial, they still have 9,000 lawyers behind them.
[00:11:15] So.
[00:11:17] So he's sitting with the. With the FBI agents, and he said, after all the preliminary witnesses testified, it was my jobs to bring in the victims. One by one, I'm led into slaughter because that's what the defense team was going to do to them, making them look like they'd asked for it.
[00:11:32] And the note is, it was a good defense. It was what good defense attorneys do. But also drives me crazy that the victims are essentially on trial. You know, suit. In most courts, it is illegal to consider a sex abuse or sexual assault woman's background.
[00:11:54] And yet we're still here. Actually, there's an article, I think it's like a big read or whatever in the New York Times yesterday about how in civil cases, Uber is digging up everybody's past sexual history to try to discredit the fact that their Uber driver assaulted them. It's insane. And there's, like, you know, there's a statistic about, like, how women are assaulted, like, in Ubers, like, every eight minutes.
[00:12:19] And despite having all these drivers who have, like, these convictions and whatever, they are over here trying to, like, blame the women. What. What did they wear? Did you wear heels or flats?
[00:12:31] Were you drunk? Oh, it's insane. It's insane. It's insane. And so I. This. I wrote this book probably going on nearly, like, 20 years ago, and nothing has changed.
[00:12:44] Yeah.
[00:12:46] Anyway, so sorry. So in this chapter, Kiana Oliver is called to the stand first.
[00:12:53] And, you know, it's. It's. It's hard because they start with the fact that she lived with drug dealers and, you know, all of these things which are not relevant to whether or not she was assaulted. They're bringing them up, and it's. You know, they really. They, as he said, they led her to the slaughter.
[00:13:20] So the next. So they. The reason I did this was like, this whole.
[00:13:25] It's a whole, you know, witness testimony is to show that same thing happening. Like, did you take off your clothes willingly? What did you do? What did you do to make this man hurt you?
[00:13:37] Oh, it's never great. But anyway, so the next highlight is Rachel tried to rehabilitate Keanu on direct, but the damage was done. It. It looked like Judge Brody was just a lonely old man. Women offered up their companionship, and he took them up on it. The fact that he'd held the lives of their children in the balance seem of no consequence in this trial.
[00:13:54] And this is the beauty of powers that you can wield at any time.
[00:14:00] That's a good line. Should be in the book instead of in the notes. The beauty of power is that you can wield at any time.
[00:14:07] Okay, moving on. So it's just that. And so the next person who is testifying is Claire.
[00:14:16] And it's, you know, they're like, well, why did you go see the judge alone? Despite the fact that he, of course, holds a fate of her child in her hands?
[00:14:28] And Casey.
[00:14:34] So Casey had sat down sometime during the ca. During this. Oh, when Claire came in, because she's Claire's attorney. She had come down and sat next to Miles because.
[00:14:44] Well, in this case, Casey. Though Casey's generally a defense attorney, she would sit down on the prosecution side to show that she was in line with what they're thinking. There's all these theories that juries care about. All this I actually don't know, because when you talk to jurors, actually, you never ask these kinds of questions. You ask, like what, why they found your client guilty or not guilty. That's actually the thing you want to know and how you came across and things like that. But we do have this belief that some of these other things make a huge difference.
[00:15:12] Anyway, so Yarborough, who is Brody's attorney, hammered at her for another half hour, but finally relented because she's a better witness, which is why they wanted her. She's a better witness than some of the other ones because she's an attorney.
[00:15:27] So Casey's hand had snuck in mine. I squeezed it hard when Yarborough sat down. The sharp edges of her big diamond ring cut straight through my heart.
[00:15:36] I love that as a final line, even though it's not a Cliffy line.
[00:15:38] It says.
[00:15:40] Sorry. The note says, this is what happens when a man dates another man's fiance. Guess he gets what he gets. So the next chapter is chapter 34. It's a Casey chapter, and it's May 3, 2004.
[00:15:56] And so they're still sitting, you know, in the. In the courthouse. But then it's from Cayce's point of view. So the next line is.
[00:16:03] Miles's thin fingers were stronger than they looked. His thumb absentmindedly brushed the skin stretched across my knuckles. I didn't want to let go of Miles's hand, but I did. The moment the door of the courtroom opened, my fiance Tom stepped in. He was the last person to expect it, though his appearance should have been no surprise.
[00:16:20] Blood was thicker than anything else in the Brony family.
[00:16:24] Tom made eye contact with me, and I dropped the AUSA's hand like a kid trying to win a game of hot potato.
[00:16:31] So this is the thing. Well, she doesn't know what Tom saw. Hopefully in her mind, hopefully Tom didn't see anything.
[00:16:38] But. So here's the thing. So of course she has a witness, and she's going to be sitting on the prosecution side, but as the nephew of this judge, Tom is going to be sitting on the defense side in support of his family member.
[00:16:55] And it's just. It's just a.
[00:16:59] You know, I don't like drama in my life, but this is a bit of a. Like a high drama moment because everybody here has got something to defend or something to hide.
[00:17:09] So.
[00:17:12] So here we come. Are they in?
[00:17:17] Oh, they are in federal court.
[00:17:20] So they're in federal court and the defense has made a motion to dismiss. So at the end of every prosecution case, if you don't want to be in, you want to be charged with ineffective assistance of counsel, the defense attorn, you make a motion, everybody makes the. Makes the motion, and you make the motion to dismiss, saying that the prosecution's case did not meet the burden of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
[00:17:52] And the judge, 99% of the time, nobody's ever. It's never been granted in my case, although I've had not guilty. So that's. Well, that's. That's just winning out, right?
[00:18:05] So this has never happened to me. I've never seen it happen.
[00:18:10] But everybody makes the motion and it must happen at some point.
[00:18:14] So in.
[00:18:18] So anyway, this. It's different in federal court than the name of the motion, but basically, our rose has. Pursuant to Rule 29, I move that the judgment the court grant the defendant's motion for a judgment of acquittal because the prosecution has not met their burden under 42 title. Section 42, title 18, 18 is the criminal section of the federal law.
[00:18:41] And then he also talks about a Supreme Court case violating defendants due process and yada yada. So, oh, and this is interesting because this is the fundamental problem with this case. So Garborough says, even assuming all evidence prosecution presented were true, nowhere in the statute does it give notice to the defendant that the conduct is illegal.
[00:19:03] So the whole, like, ignorance of the law is no excuse is one thing. Like, you could say that you don't know that murder is illegal, but that's not a defense.
[00:19:12] However, there.
[00:19:15] Because he was in federal court versus state court, and there's no.
[00:19:20] There are no kinds of statutes for assault and these kinds of things in federal court. In this context, he can say that there was no reasonable way. He. The judge can argue that there's no reasonable way that he could have known that his conduct was illegal. Was it immoral, Was it wrong? We can all argue that. But that's. Nobody goes to jail on immoral and wrong. You only go to jail on legalities.
[00:19:45] And so it's something they're considering here.
[00:19:50] And so everybody's, like, freaking out. And the judge says, does the United States wish. United States wish to respond? And they're freaking out because while they expected a judgment of acquittal, if they thought it was just gonna be based on, like, not presenting enough evidence. Not that the law that he was prosecuted under cannot sustain this case.
[00:20:11] So.
[00:20:13] So the judge is like, you know, they're like, no, no, no, it's fine. You know, the defendant was well noticed that willfully coercing vulnerable women into sexual conduct was a violation of the statute.
[00:20:24] And the judge pauses. And the judge pauses. You never like a pause? You never like a pause and pauses and says, okay, you know what? I'm gonna let the jury home. I'll take it under advisement, and I'll reconvene the court when I've made my decision.
[00:20:40] Casey. This is all from Casey's perspective, this chapter. So at this point, Casey's sort of, like, freaking out a little bit, and she turns to Miles and she says, what did that mean? And so Rachel and Chaz turn and says, it means, Ms. Court that we could lose this case. It looks as the judge thinks we may be overreaching with the prosecution.
[00:20:57] And so it's like, do you really think he'd rule in their favor? Miles asks. Oh, and so this this sort of describes it. In all the years I've been here, I've only seen a judge do this once. Chas said, usually the deny defendant and then proceed with the case.
[00:21:09] So what happened the other time? Miles asked the court that the defendant coach has answered.
[00:21:14] So Casey's like, oh, my God, like, I've sacrificed my client to this process in the hope that we could get this judge off the street, as it were, or out of chambers, as it were, and he may not be prosecuted for this. These many crimes.
[00:21:36] Casey, there's a highlight here. It says, after a few dozen felony cases in the county court, I was pretty comfortable with state criminal law, but federal court, with its nearly 700 crimes, rigid sentencing guidelines, and high stakes, was beyond my scope.
[00:21:50] And so the. There's a note, and it says, any question where the answer can be Leavenworth is a scary thing.
[00:21:57] Post war on drugs, federal criminal law became very serious, as there are many ways in and few ways out.
[00:22:03] It's true. I mean, during the, like, Reagan, Bush, Clinton era, that swath of time, the. Well, we had the federal sentencing guidelines, we had the prosecution for non violent drug offenses federally prosecuted, and people with mandatory minimum sentences of like 120 months. They're all done in months, but basically 10 years and like getting caught with like, some pot on the street went from like, misdemeanor, like no jail time, slap on the wrist fine to possibly 10 years in federal prison.
[00:22:44] And so as an attorney, I handled very few felt felony, very few federal cases, because it really felt like no way out. I mean, I'm not saying that clients don't deserve a defense. They do. And they have the federal public defender and, you know, they have other attorneys they could hire, but it just felt like a losing battle. Like you were just standing up there to be a cog in the machine and that the number of ways to effectively represent your client weren't that great.
[00:23:15] I think if I were to do this now, I might. I might, I might feel the same way. Anyway, so.
[00:23:25] So we need to talk to you, Rachel. Whisper shouted about what? My heart sped up after the Judge Grant case. Makes baby nervous at this point, Casey.
[00:23:39] They go to the attorney room. There's like attorney. There's like tons of conference rooms in courthouses where people go to do whatever, have conversations, have private conversations, because you can close the door on all of them.
[00:23:51] I've used them basically to have attorney client conversations because otherwise you're out in the hallway where there's no confidentiality. But if you go into one of these rooms. You can close the door. So they all go into one of these rooms and close the door.
[00:24:03] And Miles asks Casey, do you remember New Year's Eve?
[00:24:07] And Casey's thinking, you mean like when you kissed me for the first time? But that's not what he's thinking.
[00:24:13] And she says what he says on New Year's Eve you said something about Judge Brody having done this to others. Who did you see him do this to?
[00:24:20] And Casey's like in her mind thinking, I did not want to become involved, I do not want to testify. And now like she's, now that she's in deeper having become engaged to Tom Brody, like her wanting to testify, like much, much smaller because it could really affect your life.
[00:24:42] And at this point she says, I was quiet for a long time. Had me heard me that I, I did not want to get in between the Brodies and Justice Shanice. I finally said, how do you know Shanice? Do you have a last name? I don't. She says, I blocked out a lot of what happened that morning. But when Rachel asked me about it, I remember Judge even calling her Shanice.
[00:25:01] And will you. So before like you know that Tom, I mean, excuse me, that Miles is going to ask her to testify and before he can get the words out, there's some kind of commotion. And then Tom like steps in and he says, what is going on? And Tom's question was directly at Miles. And Miles says, I was talking to a potential witness about her testimony. Tom looked from me to Miles. His face is steady in perplexity. What could she have to testify about Casey? Miles questioned, putting me on the spot. And then the highlight is pity. Between my fiance and my soon to be family and a man I was insanely attracted to and had slept with, I wanted to click my heels and wake up in my parents West Boulevard house to the smell of sizzling bacon and an apple covered Dutch pancake. I looked down at my sensible navy heels, not a red sequin in sight, disappearing. Wasn't going to happen.
[00:25:53] I took a deep breath and dove. I don't know, what does the note say?
[00:25:58] Oh, I thought of it. I actually thought of it when I said it. I'm going to admit I use this Dorothy imagery a little too often across many books and pen names. Also, I have to admit here, I've never seen the wizard of Oz.
[00:26:11] It's true. I don't really can't tolerate. I've seen like five seconds of the wizard of Oz and I'm just, I'm out. I'M out. Like, it's about.
[00:26:20] But I do use the imagery of, oh, my God, it's so true. So I.
[00:26:26] There's. I don't know what the thing is. I overuse. I overuse elephant in the living room. I overuse this one. And whatever I said in the last video, overused. There's like three sort of metaphors that I can't get away from. And I swear to God, like, I'm going to check future books to make sure I don't use the same thing over and over and over again.
[00:26:45] So then she explains to Tom that, you know, that she lost this pen and she went back into the thing and she saw Judge Eamon.
[00:26:56] She says, judge Eamon. Judge Brody, I mean, wasn't alone. He was. He was having sex with his fox. When once I started to get the. Once I started, the rest came out in a rush.
[00:27:04] She said she was kind of disheveled and naked from the waist down. Judge Brody was in his robe and not much else. Standing behind her. Well, you know, you know, if you know, you know.
[00:27:16] And the highlight is for a room full of prosecutors, not one of them had much to say after that. Because Tom is a county prosecutor, Miles is a federal prosecutor. Casey, a defense attorney needs a top. Frankly, hanging out with prosecutors, moving on, it says, this is so funny. In my many years of practice, I never encountered a quiet prosecutor. That's true. I've never met people who have more diary of the mouth than prosecutors. They have something to say about everything all the time. They just never stop talking as if, like, they can win by just having the most words. Actually, I've encountered this in court recently. Just some lawyers, like, they just keep talking, and sometimes you're like, you are not saying anything. But they want to win the word war. It's actually annoying. They don't get paid by the word, so who knows? So basically, they're still all in this room and Chaz is saying, do we need to subpoena you or will you come willingly? And she's like, you rested. And Chaz is like, new evidence will open the case in chief.
[00:28:14] And they kick her out so they can have, like, a conference among those federal prosecutors. And she said, it was me and Tom and a hot, empty room. And Tom says, why didn't you ask? Why didn't you tell me? And she says, I didn't know what I saw. Which is almost truthful. She's like, I met Eamon's wife, and men have needs, I assumed, because even his wife's in A wheelchair, I think. I don't know if she's Parkinson's or Ms. Or some debilitating disease.
[00:28:39] And you assumed right. Tom said Aunt Mora hasn't been well in a long time, not even has affairs. A man in his position, a lot of women proposition him. Unfortunately, he takes too many up on it, especially when he's had a little alcohol. His judgment isn't the best.
[00:28:55] And so, you know, he's like, we tried to keep it in the family, but now it's out. So, you know, they've excused his behavior away, whether they believe it or not, who knows?
[00:29:04] So she says, you know, they think he'll be convicted. And it's 50, 50.
[00:29:10] And she says, this is awful. She says to Tom, are we going to be okay? They'll probably call.
[00:29:16] And it's finally, Tom gave me what I needed. He pulled me into a fierce hug. I love Uncle Eamon, but you're more important to me. You're my future. You do what you have to do and know that it's far as we're all concerned, your family.
[00:29:29] And that's always. That's what she wanted, like, years ago, seven or eight years ago in, like, the Casey timeline. And she's thrilled that she got it now.
[00:29:37] And the highlight is, I relaxed. I hadn't upset the apple cart. All was going to be okay in my little universe. What note did I write?
[00:29:46] Oh. The last time Casey upset the cart, her life went in an entirely different direction. She anticipated. All she wants at this point is get back where she started many years before, when everything had felt certain, safe and predictable.
[00:29:58] So it's 30 minutes in, so we're gonna stop here for today. I believe there are only.
[00:30:05] Oh, my God. There are six more chapters in the book. I didn't realize there were so many or seven more at this point chapters in the book.
[00:30:14] So I guess we'll do those later.
[00:30:17] In my head, I was gonna, like, blow through this. So, you know, we leave off now with Casey potentially testifying, having to testify against her future in law's family, who have a lot of power and have crushed her before.
[00:30:33] And everybody wants what they want, and everybody's wants are competing in this instance.
[00:30:41] So I'll see you soon as we end off with this episode of Politics of Justice.
[00:30:47] If you made it this far, you like the video, I'd love you to, like, subscribe and share.
[00:30:53] Talk to you soon.
